[Torg] Skills now....

[Benjamin Grant]

Kansas Jim writes:
>
>Benn writes:
>
>[...]
>
>> Take Dance for example.  (Or Art(Dance)) I just got done watching So
>You
>
>Dance is a DEX based skill in the R&E. Artist (dance) would apply
>to creating the choreography of a dance.

Sure, that would work.  However, (again) after watching SYTYCD (So You Think
You Can Dance), I have come to the conclusion that even when performing
someone else's choreography, Dex is only going to  tell you how good your
technique was, not how much feeling you put into it, nor how expressive you
were.

What the judges - all master choreographers in their own right - kept saying
was that technique and performance are two completely separate things, and
performance is emotional, not physical.

The dancers that really shone on the show were the ones that used more than
just dex.

>[...]
>
>> However, when it came down to the judging, the Strength and Dexterity
>helped
>> nail the Technique of the dancing, but what the judges were really
>looking
>> at is the style and expressionism - the performance factor, and while
>Dex
>> and Str let you pull off moves, creativity comes from Perception.  (I
>do't
>> know if this is Torg cannon or not, but in my interpretation of Torg,
>Mind
>> governs left brain activities while Perception governs right brain
>> activities.)
>
>MIND covers the creative side of things, the presence of the Artist
>skill there seems like a fair indication of that!

Ahh - I forgot that is Torg cannon.  Largely because I have been playing
Torg for so many years now (well past ten) with some modifications that I
sometimes forget that some of the ways I play aren't part of the basic
ruleset as sold.

In all of my Torg games, from time immemorial, I have separated left brain
skills from right brain skills.  All left brain skills, based on logic,
analysis, or memory, I base on Mind.  This includes Science skills, Evidence
Analysis, etc.  All right brained skills, based on expressiveness,
intuition, awareness, and creativity, I base on Perception.  This includes
all Art skills, Empathy, etc.

It simply does not work for me to have two mental stats and have right and
left brain stuff under just one of them.  Also, in my observation of people
in the real world, I have found plenty that are good at stuff based on one
hemisphere, but not on the other.  For example, sharp thinkers who are not
in touch with their emotional creative side.

>> Well, you *could* have multiple skills:  Dance-Technique, based on
>Dex,
>> Dance-Tricks, based on Strength, Dance-Performance, based on
>Perception.
>> But this would require a LOT of extra rolls and management, and is not
>my
>> preferred solution.  It also makes being a dancer very expensive skill
>wise.
>
>It's not going to be that expensive. Most dancers are going to be at
>least somewhat physically fit and will probably have enough Strength
>to lift their partners without requiring a skill to do so. Heck, as
>long as they're not trying to lift them over their head or hold them
>there for more than a few seconds I probably wouldn't even require a
>Lifting check to do it unless they're a weakling or their partner is
>unusually heavy for a dancer.

Yes, this is functionally equivalent to what I was saying - if they are
doing a dance require some physical strength for the tricks, lifting,
jumping, etc, then as long as they have a decent strength, just assume that
that part of the dance will be successful if the overall roll is successful.
In other words, a skill based on another stat, but with a Str requirement.

>[...]
>
>> For example, to be a master dancer, you need to have a minimum Dex of
>11 and
>> a minimum Strength of 10. Nevertheless, when you roll your Dance
>skill, you
>> are rolling Dance + Perecption (right brain).
>
>What if I have Strength 8 and Lifting skill +2? Or do I have to be a
>big, muscular guy with a natural Strength of 10?

I don't have a system worked out, but if you asked me that as one of my
players, I would say that any combination of abilities that gets you there
works.

>> Or you can make it slightly more sophisticated: At adds 1-3, Dance is
>linked
>> to Dex, because you are learning the techniques.  Strength still has a
>10
>> requirement.  At adds 4+ Dance becomes linked to Perception, but gains
>a 11
>> Dex requirement.  Someone who does not have an 11 Dex cannot proceed
>past
>> the third add of Dance.
>
>That seems a bit more than "slightly more sophisticated" to me! It seems
>that it would eliminate a lot of character concepts. What if I want a
>character who most of the time seems kind of clumsy but out on the dance
>floor she dazzles everyone with her talent, a dance prodigy like we
>often seen in movies about dancers? A prodigy with DEX 8 and Dance +6 is
>just as good on the dance floor as DEX 11 with a tag skill of Dance +3.
>
>--
>Kansas Jim, Torg guru (ksjim (at) sdc (dot) org)
>Torg website: http://www.sdc.org/~ksjim/index.html

I have never seen any serious or dramatic movies with dance prodigies who
apart from the dance floor are portrayed as clumsy.

This is all a flavor to taste kind of thing, I think.  I like my games to be
a little more accurate, so it is unlikely that one of my players could be a
topline professional dancer and yet be clumsy off the floor.  However, I am
always willing to work with my players - perhaps we could create a
disadvantage called "extremely self-conscious" which yields a -5 to their
dex, except when they are using a Dex skill that they have a +3 or better
in, and are therefor confident in.

Also, it can also depending on the dance - are we talking just cool looking
rock and roll moves, or are we talking professional dance levels?  Maybe
Dance(basic dance hall) has no prerequisite, but Dance(pro performance)
does.

Again flavor to taste.

However, *this* GM cannot imagine, no matter the training, and dancer
pulling off most of the sick moves I saw last season on SYTYCD with a mere 8
base Dex.

-Benn Grant