[Torg] A possible outlook on the Tech Axiom: No way physics.

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 7/24/07, Jasyn Jones <jasynj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 2007, at 8:30 PM, Kansas Jim wrote:
>
> > Jasyn writes:
> >
> > [Smooge wrote:]
> >
> >>> Such principles imply that certain effects are
> >>> practically impossible. A small number of principles, however,
> >>> belong
> >>> to a different category. These say, in effect, "That cannot happen."
> >>> Such principles imply that certain effects are physically
> >>> impossible.
>
> >> Such as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (AFAIK.) This isn't
> >> a  limitation of technology, but a fundamental limitation in the
> >> laws of  physics. Hence, no tool of physical laws can overcome it,
> >> no matter  how advanced.
> >
> > But if we go with that for Torg, we eliminate 90% of the science
> > fiction
> > that the high end of the Tech axiom is supposed to emulate.
>
> I do not see how that follows at all from my central point: no matter
> how high the Axiom rating of a cosm is, the tools of that Axiom are
> limited by its basal nature. If the Technlogical axiom involves tools
> that follow the laws of physics, then all tools of that Axiom must do
> so (including Axiom 33 tools), or the definition is meaningless.
>

I think you are just trying to pick your summer argument of the year
:). I will bite once, but I will probably just wait until the summer
crazies leave you :). There is only so many years I can argue about
the number of angels that dance on the head of a pin.


Basically from what is understood about current physics most of the
limits of the universe (thermodynamics, heisenburg principle,
special/general relativity, etc) eliminate the possibility for most
anything that is above tech 25 (and some things listed at 23/24 might
not be possible). For the ability to exist, then the basic physics we
understand have to be gotten around (in many ways that the Social
axiom says that at a certain point Arrows rule can be gotten around
for some unstated amount).

...


> To answer a question you didn't ask (EDIT: You kind of did, later,
> and our answers actually match.): "How can fast interstellar travel,
> teleportation, high-energy laser weapons, and other tools which
> violate our current understanding of physics ever be possible?"
>
> Answer: Because there may be higher physical laws of which we are
> unaware, and there are certainly theories that we have not yet
> developed that will yield tools that appear to violate current theories.
>

And maybe that unwritten law is that all Axiom 33's are the same :). I
mena without a working theory of cosm mechanics, all of its handwaving
etc. Its like the astro-theory-of-the-week that various news articles
put out. Lets start argueing about


> HUP: HUP is a fundamental limit, verified by very complex (to me)
> math. It may be that this math itself is a special case of far more
> complicated and comprehensive equations, which allow the HUP to be
> violated in special circumstances: in a high gravity field,
> arbitrarily near the speed of light, when the matter involved is at a
> high enough temperature.* This may happen, or it may not. At the very
> least, it's plausible to think that it might.
>

It is a fundamental limit in our universe. Without knowing more about
how the universe works etc there is no way to figure out if that limit
is restricted to this cosm, is cross cosm, is just a limit that is
caused because of how much the living can interact with the unliving
at this axiom. One of the outcomes from HUP and others is that it is
based on observational limits.



> There probably are, and were I to nominate some of them, I'd point to
> the HUP or to the Laws of Thermodynamics (in my ignorant arrogance,
> as I am not a physicist).
>

In the laws of Social theory, Arrows law is pretty much the
thermodynamics of social theory... but at a certain point the ability
of the living to interact with the unliving surpasses it.

> My contention is:
>
> 1.) If there are such limiting laws, which seems likely, it rules out
> the "all Axioms are identical/effectively identical at '33'."
>

The only known rule is that axiom 33 is the limit of the living and
the unliving can interact with each other. The next rule that can be
devised from the original rules is that the higher the axiom, the more
one axiom can 'emulate' anohter [magic vs tech, social vs spiritual].
The third thing that can be said is that none of us are aware of what
a 33 universe would look like because we are limited by our own world
views.



-- 
Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"