[Torg] Jumping in Torg

Thu Dec 11 12:48:13 EST 2008

OK, this discussion has got pointless and that's because people are coming from different philosophical positions. This argument is the very reason that many superhero roleplaying games - and most of the more successful ones - use EFFECT-based powers rather than DESCRIPTIVE powers. 

Effect-based powers (which has HERO and M&M as its two main proponents, but to a lesser extent you can include Aberrant and possible DC Universe) you only buy the effect you want. If you want to run fast you buy "Running". If you want to jump, you buy "Jumping". The reason that this is many people's preferred method is that superhero powers simply do not have any logic in physical science. One character's superspeed is inertial, another's is time manipulation, a third is magical, etc. etc. Effect-based games ignore the differences and go purely with the effect you can cause.

With descriptive systems, you buy the description of a power, and this is usually best for light touch, narrative-heavy games. These include Marvel Superheroes, DC Heroes, Blood of Heroes, Superheroes Unlimited and many others. Descriptive powers are more intuitive and easier to understand, but they may be putty in the hands of power gamers for one of two reasons. Firstly, you can use a single power to justify many effects - the classic game breakers are "control" powers (fire control, gravity control, etc), but movement powers probably come a close second. It's easy to justify superspeed as giving you a range of other powers including ability to not breath, deliver crushing high-speed blows, super swimming, immunity to friction, etc. etc. (as an aside, one of the reasons M&M is probably the premiere superhero rpg now is because it came up with a fairly elegant and simple mechanic to simulate these highly narrative powers in an effects-based system. The
 second reason descriptive powers can be a problem is precisely because they don't tell you what you can't do. When you buy an effect, that's what you get. When you buy a descriptive power, you buy whatever you can talk your GM into giving you. Any possible objective game balance (if such a thing even exists - discuss!) is gone.

Let me give you an example. In one copy of the JLA, Flash accelerates to near light speed, remembers E=MCC and realises that his fist has near infinite mass - thus using it to punch out an enemy in a single blow. In a descriptive game, that is may be perfectly acceptable, because it is a scientific consequence of his speed, regardless of the fact that his speed itself is only rooted in pseudo-science (at best).

In HERO that's not fully possible, but you can add a Velocity/5 dice of damage as a Move-By maneuver, taking a proportion of the damage yourself. Might be enough, and then the whole relativity thing is just a bit of colour. In M&M you can do a move-by, but probably will have more luck if you spend a Hero Point and for a one-off use you get to treat your "Superspeed +10" as if it were "Superstrength +10" for a single use. In a descriptive-based game, there will be similar rules for Move-By attacks, but you may also be able to convince your GM into relativistic super-damage, though it seems unlikely. But it's the laws of physics, and the Flash's point is that though the Speed force violates the laws of physics in allowing him to accelerate to near-C, he can call on those very laws when it suits him! But I'd add a caveat. How often has he done this? If this was a perpetual feature of his power, then he would instantly become the most potent character in the
 DC universe. Not even Superman or Darkseid could withstand a blow of near infinite mass. So you're left with the question of why doesn't he do this all the time (which is why I like M&M's hero point mechanic, which provides an elegant answer). 

I personally prefer effects-based games, particularly M&M which has the narrative device of Hero Points to allow you to vary effects on a game mechanic-limited basis. I personally feel that, in its rules and set up, Torg is more Effect-based than Descriptive-based, and that's why I'd rule that when you buy Superspeed, all you get is Superspeed. I'd certainly be prepared to handwave the effect and allow someone running superfast to max out their long jump push, but they bought superspeed and superspeed is what they shall have. If they want to buy superspeed and superjump, fine, go for it, but you pay twice.

One thing I would never, ever, ever do is bring real life physics into a superhero game. That way lies madness. Everything but everything superhumans do breaches the laws of physics, from Robin all the way up to Darkseid. There isn't a single character, no, not even in the pages of the Watchmen, who could exist in the real universe. So invoking the laws of physics to calculate how far a superfast character can jump makes no more sense that calculating the mass of carrots Bugs Bunny needs to eat each day. Or what exactly are the ingredients of lembas that allow it to provide so much nourishment. 

Ultimately, if you want to do that, go ahead and make that a feature of your superhero universe. Personally I wouldn't, and I don't believe that doing so is consistent with either the comic books or the superhero roleplaying games that I've known and played (and as something of a superhero rpg collector, that's a lot!). It's not an argument you can win, however, because it comes down to more than an understanding of physics - it's whether you believe those laws even have a place in the genre. For me, they don't. 

Phil

Phil

--- On Thu, 11/12/08, Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com> wrote:
From: Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>
Subject: RE: [Torg] Jumping in Torg
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Date: Thursday, 11 December, 2008, 3:22 PM

Although I haven't checked the torg inbox, I can see several messages
waiting to be read.  Before I do, I *did* come across an interesting source:

http://theflash.wikia.com/

...which has profiles on the various Flash's.  Some quotes:

-"Lending" velocity to objects or people already in motion. Since his
interaction with the Speed Force, he may also lend his speed and angular
momentum to another object or person.

-He is able to "steal" speed and/or momentum from anyone, effectively
turning them into living statues. Also can steal speed from bullets and
other fast moving objects thrown at him or at others.

-"Hurl small projectiles at hypersonic velocities."

-Infinite Mass Punch: Traveling near the speed of light acquired the
relativistic mass of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the
force of "a white dwarf star"

All of the above clearly indicates that the power affects not only speed,
but momentum as well.  The ability to hurl objects at high speed proves that
the speed he imparts continues as momentum after the imparting.
Conclusively, his powers aren't about speed to the exclusion of momentum
control, they obviously include momentum control.

So finally perhaps we can all agree that when the Flash jumps, his momentum
from running at high speeds carries him *far*.

As far as air resistance being a problem, we have the following quote taken
from the same source:

-The Flash's body is surrounded by what he calls his "speed force
aura".
This aura protects him and anyone who is running with him or carried by him,
from the effects of using his speed. This includes friction and airborne
particulate matter. It may also protect him from injury from high speed
impacts such as punches he delivers and receives from his opponents. With
this aura he is able to absorb kinetic energy. He does seem to possess some
level of superhuman resistance to injury but this does not extend far past
normal physical interactions, as received from normal combat.

This is an obvious necessity - whether running or sailing through the air,
air resistance is a problem.  The Speed Force Aura can obviously eliminate
this issue, or he wouldn't be able to run in an atmosphere close to the
speed of light.

Hopefully this can answer the questions of anyone that still has any.

-Benn Grant
eFix Computer Consulting
benn at 4eFix.com
603.283.6601

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