[Torg] Jumping in Torg

Thu Dec 11 13:05:06 EST 2008

Although it may not exactly the same thing, I use similar terminology, breaking superhero games down into two kinds: POWER based games and EFFECT based games.

With a POWER based game, if you have a power, you have a power.  Let’s say you have the power of teleportation – both of yourself and items around you.  You could:

·         Teleport a lit ,match into the gas tank of the car chasing you

·         Teleport a heavy object above a bad guy

·         Teleport the bad guy’s weapon’s out of his hands and into yours

·         And countless other crafty ideas

With an EFFECT based game (like the Hero System) your character cannot purchase or have a power, all you can do is buy power EFFECTS.  What this means is that if you want the character to have an overall power – such as the Power of Fire, you have to pre-think out every EFFECT you want to be able to do, and buy *those*.  Any effect that you did not think of ahead of time you have no access to, no matter how silly that seems.  For example, if you buy 5 or 6 fire based powers, but overlook buying “Environmental Change”, than the GM is fully within his rights to say that while shooting fire around damaging your opponents, you have no ability to light any of the stuff in the room on fire!

EFFECT based gaming is favored by GMs that are afraid of or don’t trust their players, or by GM’s that feel uncomfortable with the larger aspect of being a GM – dealing with the unknown and making rulings.  Some GM’s, for example, are uncomfortable telling a player “no” without a rule to back them up.

It would seem for fuller, more accurate representation of the super power usage we see in the movies and in books, that POWER based games are better suited than EFFECT based ones.

When my group sat down and decided to play Supers again, although we had been using Torg for that for a year, we wanted to examine our other options.  We checked out Hero System, M&M, Blood of Heroes, and more.  It came down to Torg versus Hero System.  The deciding factor was that Hero System simply does not permit characters to buy or have powers, only effects.

So we went with Torg.  I really feel that with Torg universal and consistent framework (values & measures, logarithmic scale, etc) that Torg is the ideal tool for running games that are less about making sure everything is pre-planned to the nth degree, and more supportive of a more flexible approach, and it certainly evinces a very cinematic feel.  This is why Torg is the best alternative to the more limited and constrictive Effect approach that Hero System uses.  Torg rewards invention and clever play, and as such, fit perfectly in with Power based Supers.

And after all, on the face of it, a supers game *not* based on Powers as primary just (tom me) seems kind of pointless – like a concert without music.

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

 <mailto:benn at 4eFix.com> benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Phil Dack
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:48 PM
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: RE: [Torg] Jumping in Torg

OK, this discussion has got pointless and that's because people are coming from different philosophical positions. This argument is the very reason that many superhero roleplaying games - and most of the more successful ones - use EFFECT-based powers rather than DESCRIPTIVE powers. 

Effect-based powers (which has HERO and M&M as its two main proponents, but to a lesser extent you can include Aberrant and possible DC Universe) you only buy the effect you want. If you want to run fast you buy "Running". If you want to jump, you buy "Jumping". The reason that this is many people's preferred method is that superhero powers simply do not have any logic in physical science. One character's superspeed is inertial, another's is time manipulation, a third is magical, etc. etc. Effect-based games ignore the differences and go purely with the effect you can cause.

With descriptive systems, you buy the description of a power, and this is usually best for light touch, narrative-heavy games. These include Marvel Superheroes, DC Heroes, Blood of Heroes, Superheroes Unlimited and many others. Descriptive powers are more intuitive and easier to understand, but they may be putty in the hands of power gamers for one of two reasons. Firstly, you can use a single power to justify many effects - the classic game breakers are "control" powers (fire control, gravity control, etc), but movement powers probably come a close second. It's easy to justify superspeed as giving you a range of other powers including ability to not breath, deliver crushing high-speed blows, super swimming, immunity to friction, etc. etc. (as an aside, one of the reasons M&M is probably the premiere superhero rpg now is because it came up with a fairly elegant and simple mechanic to simulate these highly narrative powers in an effects-based system. The second reason descriptive powers can be a problem is precisely because they don't tell you what you can't do. When you buy an effect, that's what you get. When you buy a descriptive power, you buy whatever you can talk your GM into giving you. Any possible objective game balance (if such a thing even exists - discuss!) is gone.

Let me give you an example. In one copy of the JLA, Flash accelerates to near light speed, remembers E=MCC and realises that his fist has near infinite mass - thus using it to punch out an enemy in a single blow. In a descriptive game, that is may be perfectly acceptable, because it is a scientific consequence of his speed, regardless of the fact that his speed itself is only rooted in pseudo-science (at best).

In HERO that's not fully possible, but you can add a Velocity/5 dice of damage as a Move-By maneuver, taking a proportion of the damage yourself. Might be enough, and then the whole relativity thing is just a bit of colour. In M&M you can do a move-by, but probably will have more luck if you spend a Hero Point and for a one-off use you get to treat your "Superspeed +10" as if it were "Superstrength +10" for a single use. In a descriptive-based game, there will be similar rules for Move-By attacks, but you may also be able to convince your GM into relativistic super-damage, though it seems unlikely. But it's the laws of physics, and the Flash's point is that though the Speed force violates the laws of physics in allowing him to accelerate to near-C, he can call on those very laws when it suits him! But I'd add a caveat. How often has he done this? If this was a perpetual feature of his power, then he would instantly become the most potent character in the DC universe. Not even Superman or Darkseid could withstand a blow of near infinite mass. So you're left with the question of why doesn't he do this all the time (which is why I like M&M's hero point mechanic, which provides an elegant answer). 

I personally prefer effects-based games, particularly M&M which has the narrative device of Hero Points to allow you to vary effects on a game mechanic-limited basis. I personally feel that, in its rules and set up, Torg is more Effect-based than Descriptive-based, and that's why I'd rule that when you buy Superspeed, all you get is Superspeed. I'd certainly be prepared to handwave the effect and allow someone running superfast to max out their long jump push, but they bought superspeed and superspeed is what they shall have. If they want to buy superspeed and superjump, fine, go for it, but you pay twice.

One thing I would never, ever, ever do is bring real life physics into a superhero game. That way lies madness. Everything but everything superhumans do breaches the laws of physics, from Robin all the way up to Darkseid. There isn't a single character, no, not even in the pages of the Watchmen, who could exist in the real universe. So invoking the laws of physics to calculate how far a superfast character can jump makes no more sense that calculating the mass of carrots Bugs Bunny needs to eat each day. Or what exactly are the ingredients of lembas that allow it to provide so much nourishment. 

Ultimately, if you want to do that, go ahead and make that a feature of your superhero universe. Personally I wouldn't, and I don't believe that doing so is consistent with either the comic books or the superhero roleplaying games that I've known and played (and as something of a superhero rpg collector, that's a lot!). It's not an argument you can win, however, because it comes down to more than an understanding of physics - it's whether you believe those laws even have a place in the genre. For me, they don't. 

Phil

Phil

--- On Thu, 11/12/08, Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com> wrote:

From: Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>
Subject: RE: [Torg] Jumping in Torg
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Date: Thursday, 11 December, 2008, 3:22 PM

Although I haven't checked the torg inbox, I can see several messages

waiting to be read.  Before I do, I *did* come across an interesting source:

http://theflash.wikia.com/

...which has profiles on the various Flash's.  Some quotes:

-"Lending" velocity to objects or people already in motion. Since his

interaction with the Speed Force, he may also lend his speed and angular

momentum to another object or person.

-He is able to "steal" speed and/or momentum from anyone, effectively

turning them into living statues. Also can steal speed from bullets and

other fast moving objects thrown at him or at
 others.

-"Hurl small projectiles at hypersonic velocities."

-Infinite Mass Punch: Traveling near the speed of light acquired the

relativistic mass of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the

force of "a white dwarf star"

All of the above clearly indicates that the power affects not only speed,

but momentum as well.  The ability to hurl objects at high speed proves that

the speed he imparts continues as momentum after the imparting.

Conclusively, his powers aren't about speed to the exclusion of momentum

control, they obviously include momentum control.

So finally perhaps we can all agree that when the Flash jumps, his momentum

from running at high speeds carries him *far*.

As far as air resistance being a problem, we have the following quote taken

from the same source:

-The Flash's body is surrounded by what he calls his "speed force

aura".

This aura protects him and
 anyone who is running with him or carried by him,

from the effects of using his speed. This includes friction and airborne

particulate matter. It may also protect him from injury from high speed

impacts such as punches he delivers and receives from his opponents. With

this aura he is able to absorb kinetic energy. He does seem to possess some

level of superhuman resistance to injury but this does not extend far past

normal physical interactions, as received from normal combat.

This is an obvious necessity - whether running or sailing through the air,

air resistance is a problem.  The Speed Force Aura can obviously eliminate

this issue, or he wouldn't be able to run in an atmosphere close to the

speed of light.

Hopefully this can answer the questions of anyone that still has any.

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer
 Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

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