[Torg] Jumping in Torg

Fri Dec 12 13:54:47 EST 2008

Actually, you bring up a good point - but if we are going in this direction,
then "fun" is insufficient.  Let me rephrase for the both of us:

The first job of a GM is to make sure that the needs of everyone in the game
- the players and the GM him/herself - are getting met.  Those needs can
include fun, escape, validation, etc.

My *original* point is that without authenticity you are left with a beer
and pretzels level of a game.  I will grant you that this may suffice for
some gamers.  However, for many gamers, myself included, we find
beer-n-pretzel level game to be unsatisfactory.  I hesitate to call this
kind of gaming *serious* or *deep* gaming for two reasons: I wouldn't want
the sensitive to feel like I am disparaging beer-n-pretzels gaming, and I
wouldn't want to imply that non beer-n-pretzels gaming can't be just as fun
as any kind.

So let me amend myself to say, for those not interested in a beer-n-pretzel
gaming, the first job for a GM is authenticity.

Thanks for the catch.

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
[mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of James Knevitt
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 1:44 PM
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: Re: [Torg] Jumping in Torg

I would argue that the first job of a GM is to make sure everyone's having
fun. If a GM picks authenticity over the enjoyment of all involved (both the
GM and their players), I'd start looking for another game.

2008/12/12 Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>

Authenticity is the first job of a GM.  If a GM fails at this, nothing else
matters.

1)      To me, Torg is the playground of people who play more flexibly than
effect-based gaming - as witnessed by its consistency and universality.

2)      A superhero genre is not a license to dump authenticity.  That's
what the Heroes TV show thought, and that's why it has fallen so short of
its potential.

3)      The material at the flash wiki link I provided clearly demonstrates
that the Flash's powers include momentum, not just speed.

4)      I have been playing rpg's for 3 decades, so I believe I know them
quite well too.  Nevertheless, what they have or have not done is probably
more a factor of streamlining for playability.  In either case, I have
demonstrated utterly that in reality, speed is critical to determining
distance covered.

5)      Even if the Flash doesn't build ramps, and even if his vertical
jumping remains unchanged, his jump distance increases even without a ramp.
Consider - I, in real life, can jump and spend one second in the air.
Assuming that when the Flash's feet leave the group he doesn't slow way down
due to authenticity, then 1 second - average human jumping hang time - is
enough for him to travel truly legendary distance horizontally, even if he
never gets more than 2 or 3 feet off of the ground.  The point being that
even a weak human jump such as even I can do, as out of shape as I am, is
more than even hang time to go very far when moving at the speeds that the
Flash does.  And of course, the Flash is free to build ramps.

This is kind of the over point, some GMs - perhaps like you - want the
player to pay extra points to be permitted to use a clever new trick.  Other
GM's - like me - want to reward the player's ingenuity, assuming that the
character already has the ability to accomplish the building of a ramp in
the blink of an eye and has the materials.

Bottom line is if the player figures out a way to leverage his existing
powers in a way that makes sense, I will not deny him the ability to do so
simply because he hasn't paid the points.  In my games the points, such as
they are, buy *abilities* NOT *effects*.

Just like in Torg, where a 13 Intelligence is an *ability* that can be
leveraged in countless ways, not a bundle of pre-determined effects outside
of which one is not permitted to stray.

Which is why I love Torg. J

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
[mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Phil Dack
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 5:17 AM

To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: RE: [Torg] Jumping in Torg

--- On Thu, 11/12/08, Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com> wrote:

From: Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>
> I am not a fan of an approach that only suits people who want to play 
> Batman and tells people who want to play the Flash that they are 
> out of luck.

If you'd said your issue was with games that require you to think of every
possible effect in advance, or bog you down with detail, those are valid
concerns. An effect-based game does not explicitly prohibit playing any
particular character, even game-breakers such as Flash.

To return to the original jumping argument, however, I'll go back and
summarise the reason I disagree with your approach. But your mileage clear
varies:

1. To me, Torg is more effects-based than powers-based, so when you buy
super-running all you do is the ability to run (specific game effect)
faster. You benefit from any direct game correlations, such as collision
damage, but do not benefit from other correlations that may exist in the
real world but do not currently exist in the game. That's a judgement call,
and yours differs. There's no right or wrong here.

2. I think bringing real world physics into a superhero game is just plain
nuts. There is no way for any bipedal creature to accelerate itself speeds
of 7,500 mph and survive without significant protection (eg a spaceship).
Given this is the case, why should it follow that the laws of physics that
says "great speed = great leaping ability" follow, when the laws that say
"great speed = great friction", "great speed = great mass", "great speed =
great energy requirement" clearly don't apply.

3. I don't know the canon particularly well, but I'm familiar with Flash and
followed the recent reinvention of the JLA for several years, and he's never
leapt in all the books I read IIRC. Equally, I'm not aware of Quicksilver
being known for jumping about the place either. I always feel that
superheroics as a game is highly genre-driven, and there's little in the
genre that I know that suggests either of them should be able to leap great
distances.

4. I know superhero rpgs very well, and I don't know of a single game that
associates running speed with leaping. Many of these games do a good job of
recreating the genre, and in all my years of reading, playing and
contributing to forums, I've never previously come across the suggestion
that leaping should be linked to speed. Not proof that it shouldn't, but
it's circumstantial evidence in support of point 3.

And finally, a new point!

5. Superheroics is all about power stunts, as Travis or Smooge mentioned. I
could definitely foresee a power stunt where a speedster ran up a ramp and
leaped huge distances for a specific purpose. The difference here is that in
the realms of a power stunt a superhero can achieve things that they would
never otherwise be able to achieve (cheesy examples: think Batman producing
a kryptonite arrow; superman flying backwards around the Earth to reverse
time; Beast coming up with a way for Storm to conduct lightning through
Wolverine's adamantine to turn him into a human electro-magnet). If Flash
starts regularly building ramps using his superspeed, then it sounds to me
like he's investing in a limited version of the Superjump power, and should
buy it accordingly rather than trying to get it as a freebie.

Now all of that is simply how I would rule in my game. But I am a fearful GM
who loves effect-based powers because of the awesome control they allow me
to exert over my puny players. Or something like that.

Phil

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-- 
James Knevitt
jknevitt at gmail.com

"O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you."
-- TS Eliot, 'The Waste Land'

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