[Torg] Announcement: Compleat Magick

Wed Jul 2 12:02:07 EDT 2008

I need to make a few clarifications before continuing here. I tried to
keep as much of the original design as made sense. However, most
decisions are filtered through the Primary Rule of Magic, and as a
result, I have made a few changes to things, some of which showed up
here. I will explain them as they come up.

There is a bit of ambiguity as to whether the fact that something is a
ward exempts it from having to pay the costs for impressing a spell
into something other than the caster. If you go by Kansas Jim's
definition of a ward as a stepping stone between focusing spells and
impressing them into the caster, such an exemption makes sense. If,
however, you see wards as being more complex than impressed spells,
there shouldn't be. I am now actually leaning toward there not being
such an exemption, as I do see wards as being a higher spell. Adding
that in would change the State line and the Basic Complexity line:
  State: FO-LV-LT-IN-EA + FO-LV-FO-LV-LT-IN-EA + ward (34) - [20] = 14
  Basic Complexity: divination 17 + process 37 + sum 36 - cast time 18 = 72

The control cost of a ward as listed is 8 + the caster's adds in the
arcane knowledge. However, this rewards people with higher Perception
scores, as the spell summary only lists the adds. This to me is a
violation of the Primary Rule, and so in spell rewrites, I set the
control cost as being equal to the skill value that the ward can use,
and a spell designer may put in up to the total of his divination +
adds in the knowledge.

There is no process theorem of apportation. It's a throwback to
Pre-Aysle spell design. However, since Worldbook spells do this as
well, I allowed for spells to use magic skills other than the pattern
skill as process theorems if they show significant affinity for the
alternate skill. In this case, the spell shows great affinity for
apportation, and hence that skill could be used as a process theorem.
I would also allow, in light of the increased complexity of impressing
the spell into an object, for range and speed to be usable as process
theorems, which would more than handle the increase.

Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Speaker, 5-Color Rules Committee
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"There are always possibilities, my sergeant told me. But he never had
his possibilities torn away like wings from a fly."

2008/7/2 Phil Dack <philipdack at yahoo.co.uk>:
> You might want to double check how you've constructed this. As said before,
> I may be wrong, but unearthing my old spell design sheet, it tells me (how
> nice of it) that to impress a ward in Earth you have to run the state path
> into the impressed target material before going to mechanism and then
> result. Which makes a state path of Folk - Folk (impressed spell) - Earth
> (ward in earth) - Light (mechanism) - Earth for a total of 34, and basic
> complexity of 72.
>
> Also not sure about your calculation of Control element. You've allowed Div
> Modifier of 11, which means the caster/designer must have 11 adds in Folk AK
> which seems a bit high. You also miss out the cost of 10 for a Ward.
> However, is there an intrinsic detection built into the spell? Do you need
> such a high Div Mod? I can't recall....
>
> Finally, what's the Apportation theorem? There are two separate process
> theorems for Range and Speed, perhaps you mean one (or both) of these?
>
> Further caveat - I do recall there were one or two errors in my spell design
> spreadsheet, so just because it's telling me something doesn't mean I'm
> right. However, one or two things for you to double-check.
>
> ta,
> phil
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dominick Riesland <rabbitball at gmail.com>
> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 1 July, 2008 5:46:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Torg] Announcement: Compleat Magick
>
> I understand where you are coming from. However, the way I'm going to
> be able to get there is to play with the spells on a case-by-case
> basis and develop a sense of what works. Here's a sample from the
> Cosmversal Grimoire:
>
> Message Ward
> Source: Possibility Chalice Adventure, p. 51
> Comments: This spell travels to a point, where it detects folk to
> discharge its message. The message itself is small enough that it
> could have been sent at the listed Axiom of 12, but this spell is a
> ward, and therefore needs to be Axiom 15. In addition, the spell
> description listed states that the effect always arrives 40 seconds
> after the casting of the spell, even though the bonus number goes to
> range. This means that the bonus number is modifying both range and
> speed; a clear violation of Aysle's Magic Axiom. Also, it uses
> apportation as a process theorem, a trick that isn't available until
> Magic 17.
>     For the spell to have performed the task it did within the
> adventure, it would have needed a bonus number of 15 to reach from
> England to Thailand (6,000 miles). This is acceptable, however,
> because the assumption is that the sorcerer casting the spell was in
> possession of the Possibility Chalice at the time, an eternity shard
> that can donate Possibilities on its own to aid in effects that
> enhance communication. Therefore, the only changes to the spell will
> be to correct the Axiom rating and to remove the variable speed.
> (Given that its listed speed is 1.5 miles per round, it can still
> reach any point on Earth within 36 hours, making it quite useful.)
>     The pattern is correct; it searches for a pattern of folk within
> earth. As such, the best mechanism to use is light, as it forms the
> most natural bridge between these two knowledges. The effect is
> acceptable at 0; the message is released once triggered and remains
> for the duration of the spell. No skill roll is needed to hear the
> message. The spell going off in the presence of a non-folk is
> attributable to the ward component failing its check miserably when
> trying to determine if the cat is a folk. With no other guidance, the
> assumption is that "presence" is defined to be a distance value of 1
> meter (value 0). A ward detection value of 11 is assumed; the DN of
> identifying a living creature that isn't a folk as not being one is 0;
> therefore, this spell can misfire as stated in the spell description.
> The casting time lists a time value of 16, but says 1 hour (value 18).
> This version assumes the one hour cast time is correct.
> Spell Summary:
>     State FO-LV-LT-IN-EA + ward (21) - 20 = [1]
>     Pattern: effect 0 + area 0 (0) - 20 = [-5]
>     Control: divination 8 + folk ward 11 + effect 2 (21) - 20 = [1]
>     Apportation: range 20 + speed 17 (37) - 20 = [17]
>     Duration (29) - 20 = [9]
>     Basic Complexity: divination 17 + process 37 + sum 25 - cast time 18 =
> 61
>     Theorems (21 weeks total): apportation +1 (2), control +1 (3),
> contagion (3), voice (4), similarity (5), concentration (6) = 38
> [Backlash 24 difficulty 14]
> Description: Message Ward
>     Axiom: Magic 17
>     Skill: divination/folk 20
>
>     Backlash: 24
>     Difficulty: 14
>     Effect: 0
>     Bonus Number to: range
>
>     Range: 20 (6 miles)
>     Duration: 29 (one week)
>     Cast time: 18 (1 hour)
>     Manipulation: apportation, control
>     This ward may be placed on an earthen structure and enchanted with
> a message. The magician must mix blue dye into clay while reciting the
> message and concentrating on the desired location throughout the
> casting of the spell. At the conclusion of the spell, he slams the
> clay mixture onto the ground. If the intended structure is within
> range (as determined by the range modified by the bonus number of the
> spell), the spell effect will travel to it at a rate of 1.5 miles per
> combat round (540 mph). Upon reaching the destination, a blue ward
> will be visible.
>     Any living creature that passes within one meter of the ward
> causes the ward to make a divination magic check using a skill of 11.
> If the check is positive, it correctly identifies whether the creature
> is a folk.  When it identifies something as a folk, the message is
> released. It continues to broadcast the message as long as there is a
> folk (or another creature incorrectly detected as folk) within one
> meter of the ward, or until the duration runs out, whichever comes
> first.
>
> Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
> Speaker, 5-Color Rules Committee
> Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
> "There are always possibilities, my sergeant told me. But he never had
> his possibilities torn away like wings from a fly."
>
>
> 2008/7/1 Phil Dack <philipdack at yahoo.co.uk>:
>> I think what I mean is that there ought to be a more comprehensive list of
>> permitted mechanisms for different effects. Firstly, by defining the core
>> effects, of which there are only a certain number. Ars Magica's five verbs
>> are a good starting point (Create, Change, Control, Destroy, Know) and
>> link
>> fairly closely with Torg's 4 Magic Skills but there are a number of
>> subsets: Change includes Drain/Boost and Transform. Control includes
>> Movement powers and Domination. Destroy includes Damage and Dispel.
>> Another
>> good reference for Effects is the Hero System and Mutants & Masterminds,
>> two
>> systems that deal almost entirely in effects.
>>
>>
>>
>> That should get into a position where we know what relationships there are
>> between effects and mechanisms, where there are limits (e.g. flight spells
>> must use X as mechanism, spells that drain abilities must use Y), where
>> there are exceptions and where there are no limits. That would just add a
>> bit more coherence to the system as I see it. But it's my perspective, and
>> I'm basically thinking I can trick you into doing a piece of work I've
>> been
>> wanting to do for years :)
> _______________________________________________
> Torg mailing list
> Torg at justintimeadventures.com
> http://www.justintimeadventures.com/mailman/listinfo/torg
>
> ________________________________
> Not happy with your email address?
> Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now
> at Yahoo!
> _______________________________________________
> Torg mailing list
> Torg at justintimeadventures.com
> http://www.justintimeadventures.com/mailman/listinfo/torg
>
>