[Torg] Sometimes you use the tool...

[Sam Frazier II]

>>>Sometimes the tool uses you? This is the first of an indeterminate number of questions that I'm feeling like posing to the list. Some of them are going to be looking for specific answers, others are more discussion fodder. This one leans towards the latter. And the subject is tools and contradictions.<<<

MMmmm if the tool uses you, then it is not a tool, you are. Yes? 
 
The tool must have the appropriate axioms to use you, or create a 1 case-contradiction. OR if the tool does have the appropriate axioms but the land does not, then it is a 1 case-contradiction. Of course if both are true, we jump straight to the 4-case, and a 20% of the tools' rolls will disconnect and the tool will need you more than ever unless the tool has a way or a minion to take them back to the tool's home cosm. *wink*
 
Above is the how the contradictions work. If you have the appropriate axioms and the land has the appropriate axioms there is a 0 case-contradiction, meaning you can disconnect.

 
>>>What constitutes using a tool? 
 
Is listening to a radio or watching TV enough to cause a contradiction,<<<
 
Listening or watching no. 
 
 >>>would you have to try to change the station? <<<
 
This is a contradiction as you are manipulating the tool. 
 
>>>The former has nasty implications. <<<
 
Only if it were true, which it is not, so there is no harm.
 
>>>Hey, for that matter, if you played Mein Kampf (translated into Eidenos) over a loudspeaker at Baruk Kaah's minions (assuming you can actually find words in the Eidenos tongue to get the ideas across in the first place - might need to throw some magic or a miracle into the mix), would they risk disconnection struggling with concepts above their social axiom?<<<
 
1st they'd have to be possibility rated to attempt to use the concepts, manipulating the ideas into functional workings would be a contradiction check for those. Where they heard the concepts would depend on if it were a 1 or 4 case.
 
If they aren't possibility rated, then there is no question. Ords can't create contradictions. 
 
 
>>> (Would a magical illusion of Godzilla rampaging through Tokyo cause massive contradiction checks as people try to decide whether or not it's real? <<<
 
No because this isn't how Magic works. If it is to work the caster must pass the contradiction checks, as well as the highest mind to attempt to dispel the illusion. Considering Tokyo is stock full of perceptive people, I'm guessing this would appear and disappear in a round or two. My guess.
 
Player: "I cast a honking huge Godzilla to rampage through Tokyo."
GM: "OooooKKkkaaayyyy.....you are from Asyle, but have spent the time making the illusionary spell, so give me a conjuration total, and right after that give me a corruption roll. Causing a panic at rush hours in Tokyo is a corrupt act. Big Time."
Player: "Got a 19 on conjuration. ... er...did you say a corruption roll? But I'm scaring the bad guy to get run over by a meandering bus."
GM: " And Godzilla appears...the bad guy +1,860 of the 1,050,000 people get run over by some form of transpiration, 731 have immediate heart attacks, 56 jump off of buildings thinking it is the end of the world. Make a corruption roll. The bonus is going to be high. Oh 2,512 disbelieve too. Godzilla disappears after 10 seconds. "
Player: "But...the bad guy..."
GM: "and 2,647 innocents (as far as you know) were killed as well. Matter of fact, just give yourself one add of corruption and be thankful you aren't from Orrorsh and/or aren't in Indonesia. The Gaunt Man might come congratulate yourself. Oh BTW, Susie, your Psychologist characters cell phone is ringing. When you answer a Japanese woman is blabbering about seeing giant monsters."
 
Heh...sorry couldn't resist.
 
>>Or would the spellcaster have to make a contradiction check every time someone tried to disbelieve the illusion? <<<
 
Again, this isn't a contradiction check based on someone attempting to disbelieve. In the magic it states the illusions will disappear once someone does disbelieve. The only possible time for a contradiction is when the caster casts it and the spell is beyond his axiom and/or the lands axioms. Disbelieving the illusion is not a contradiction.
 
>>>Similar question with passive contradiction with carrying tools. If I start wandering around Aysle passing out coins made of space-age alloys, what's going to happen?<<<
 
Nothing really. The Effect Value of passing out a coin is what? 0? doesn't matter. After a certain amount of time the coins will revert to platinum, gold, silver, etc. Now if you were telekinetically flinging the space-age alloys....THAT would be cause for contradiction....A Long Range Contradiction in our game, but that is our house rule.
 
>>>For that matter, what sort of passive contradiction checks am I going to be making for having that loose change in my pocket?<<<
 
PPfffhhhhbbbtttt....why rule lawyer yourself out of having fun in the game. If you GM or even a player thinks this is a fun time, everyone at the table should fold up TORG and break out another WEG great....paranoia. The game for Rule-Lawyering laffs. *smile* Honestly....skip the small contradiction checks like this...it detracts from the game something fierce.
 
*ponder* actually loose change in the pocket doesn't cause a contradiction. Items carried are under your axioms already, but hey it is your game.
 
>>>The "Using Passive Contradiction Checks" box on p.152 of R&E says that passive contradiction checks don't have to be made for every single passive contradiction a character has. The specific examples given are a character's clothing and Nile Empire's Law of Morality. (Though I'm not sure about that last one, since the text of the Law says that every single morally gray action is a contradiction. That sounds more like an active contradiction.) So how many checks would you need for all the stuff you're carrying on you? My personal view is that the Everlaw of One isn't that picky. You're either contradictory or you're not. It doesn't matter to the Everlaw if you're carrying a single Tech 30 tool or if you're festooned with biotech, magic items, etc. You're contradictory so you make a single check at the beginning of the scene.<<<
 
If someone has something that is necessary and in constant use...legs, heart, etc, then have them make a passive check at the beginning of the scene. no big whoop. They paid for the enhancement that is always on, they can pay for the 5% of the rolls that will cause them to disconnect. They can work around it. But carrying things around doesn't cause a passive contradiction roll, only items that are in use. 
 

 
>>>Back to the tool using you:<<<
 
Yea, I love this. 
 
>>>Let's say you hypnotize an Eidenos (yeah, I use them alot in these examples... what can I say? They have a lot of low Axioms.) <<<
 
I like the magic in Nippon myself. The worst they have is Tech. That is nothing compared to a Spirit 26 Deity in my book. Don't piss off Lanala, your "experiences" will be extreme. heh. back to you.
 
>>>Give him some post-hypnotic suggestions, then cut him loose. What happens once one of them is triggered? Long-range contradiction for the mesmerist? <<<
 
No not really cause the hypnotist already did the miracle. I'd say the Eidenos does it. The contradiction lies at the feet of the "Hypnotist" when they do it to the Eidenos. After it is successful, it happens. 
 
>>>Is it a passive contradiction for the Eidenos while he's walking around? <<<
 
Why would it be? The Eidenos isn't using it. So no.
 
>>>Is his roll to resist the compulsion a contradiction?<<<
 
Once he figures out something is wrong, it is "clear your mind" thing. He isn't using the tool, so no, it isn't a contradiction.
 
>>>I assume not since otherwise people would have to make contradiction checks when "interacting" with, for example, that plasma sword being shoved through their guts.<<<
 
This would be correct. Of course if an Asyle Knight is doing the shoving of the Plasma Sword into an Eidenos in LL Kentucky....then the knight better not roll a 1-4 on the die, or the plasma sword, all the knights armor and honor (for that matter) are now iron and wishful thinking.

>>>And yes, I know these topics have been discussed multiple times over the life of this list. But there are new people, and oldbies can come up with new ideas every now and then. ;)<<<
 
Old dog new tricks? Or elderly elves with inspirational illusions?
 
I don't know about this specific idea, but it could have been talked about sometime.
 
 
Honestly the review I give for the concept you presented is this.
 
A tool can't cause a contradiction. A contradiction is caused by a possibility rated character (PC or NPC) who is using a tool (E.G. Tech-Plasma Sword; Spirit-Increase Toughness; Magic-Teleportation; Social-Tactics). The individual that is the recipient of the tools effects has no contradiction to make. The Everlaw of One has already been shifted away from the effects, ergo the recipient deals with the effects.
 
A tool can't cause a contradiction. 
 
>>>Marching to the beat of my own horn. <<<
 
This is most obvious...here is mine.
 
 
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools -- 
 
SDF II


      
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