[Torg] Sometimes you use the tool...

[Kansas Jim]

Tommy Tanaka wrote:

> What constitutes using a tool? Is listening to a radio or watching TV 
> enough to cause a contradiction, or would you have to try to change the 
> station? The former has nasty implications. Hey, for that matter, if you 

Technically, if you are listening to the radio or watching the TV then
you are expecting the device to remain functional which would be a
contradiction. However, I'd classify it as a passive contradiction and
you would only have to make a check when you turned the device on; if
that check is successful then it'll remain functioning for as long as
you (or someone) is paying attention to it, even if you're just barely
paying  attention to it. Changing the channel or fiddling with the
volume would not require additional contradiction checks. But if no one
is paying attention to it the contradiction is no longer being supported
and it will stop working. If the lack of noise brings your attention
back to it, another contradiction check would be needed to see if it
starts working again.

> played Mein Kampf (translated into Eidenos) over a loudspeaker at Baruk 
> Kaah's minions (assuming you can actually find words in the Eidenos 
> tongue to get the ideas across in the first place - might need to throw 
> some magic or a miracle into the mix), would they risk disconnection 
> struggling with concepts above their social axiom? (That sounds like a 

If they listened to it and tried to figure out what was being talked
about, yes, they might have to make a contradiction check. Just
listening to it without trying to understand it (something jakatts
would probably do, new noises are a new sensation!) would not.

I say "might" because mental tools are difficult to judge. Does thinking
about political theory constitute using that tool or do you have to try
and use it in some form of social interaction (explaining it to someone
else, trying to put the ideas into practice, etc) before it becomes a
contradictory Social tool? For something like political theory I'd say
the latter. But for something like arithmetic counting (Social 8), once
it's been explained you don't need another person around, you can count
things in your head just fine so that could create a contradiction.

> great PsyOps plan.) Would a magical illusion of Godzilla rampaging 
> through Tokyo cause massive contradiction checks as people try to decide 
> whether or not it's real? Or would the spellcaster have to make a 
> contradiction check every time someone tried to disbelieve the illusion? 

No and no. The contradiction would be fully supported by the casting
mage only, observers don't come into play. The only contradiction
check he would have to make is in casting the spell, once it goes off
he's good.

Note that I'm assuming this is a directly casted spell, not a focused
spell or a ward. If it's one of the latter, once it is cast the mage
is separated from the pattern. Either he would have to sustain it as
a long-range contradiction (and here I might require him to roll
every round to maintain it since LRCs are a lot harder to support) or
the spell would immediately fail because the local reality cannot
support its existence.

> Similar question with passive contradiction with carrying tools. If I 
> start wandering around Aysle passing out coins made of space-age alloys, 
> what's going to happen?

If the Ayslish people keep them in their pockets or otherwise on their
person, eventually they are going to start causing contradiction checks
and disconnections. Eventually the coins will be in a state where
their contradictory existence is no longer being supported, either the
people holding them disconnect or they'll simply get rid of them, and
the coins will be transformed into something more appropriate to the
reality.

> For that matter, what sort of passive contradiction checks am I going to 
> be making for having that loose change in my pocket? The "Using Passive 
> Contradiction Checks" box on p.152 of R&E says that passive 
> contradiction checks don't have to be made for every single passive 
> contradiction a character has. The specific examples given are a 
> character's clothing and Nile Empire's Law of Morality. (Though I'm not 

I'd lump loose change in with clothing and other commonplace items.

> sure about that last one, since the text of the Law says that every 
> single morally gray action is a contradiction. That sounds more like an 
> active contradiction.) So how many checks would you need for all the 

Gray actions are an active contradiction, sez so in the Nile SB! The
passive contradictions I referred to are for things like losing a
P-Point when a Good character performs an Evil action (or vice versa)
and in general all the possible ways in which a non-Nile character might
behave differently under the influence of the WL because he's now a
capital-G Good guy instead of a lower case-g good guy.

> stuff you're carrying on you? My personal view is that the Everlaw of 
> One isn't that picky. You're either contradictory or you're not. It 
> doesn't matter to the Everlaw if you're carrying a single Tech 30 tool 
> or if you're festooned with biotech, magic items, etc. You're 
> contradictory so you make a single check at the beginning of the scene.

I feel though that if the character is carrying tools which contradict
his own reality then those tools at the very least need checks of their
own on top of a check that covers all the rest of the stuff. But if it's
a Core Earther in Orrorsh and all he has is Core Earth gear? Yeah, one
passive check is probably all you need. If he whips out a useful piece
of gear that's a contradiction (like a satellite phone) and uses it then
I'll probably call for another passive check. But if he pulls out his
MP3 player to listen to some tunes during a slow boat ride, I'll usually
let that slide as part of the first passive check.

> Back to the tool using you: Let's say you hypnotize an Eidenos (yeah, I 
> use them alot in these examples... what can I say? They have a lot of 
> low Axioms.) Give him some post-hypnotic suggestions, then cut him 
> loose. What happens once one of them is triggered? Long-range 
> contradiction for the mesmerist? Is it a passive contradiction for the 
> Eidenos while he's walking around? Is his roll to resist the compulsion 
> a contradiction? I assume not since otherwise people would have to make 
> contradiction checks when "interacting" with, for example, that plasma 
> sword being shoved through their guts.

Interesting question, I had to ponder this one for quite a while. After
much back and forth I partially agree with Rabbitfall, the post-
hypnotic suggestions will only go off properly if the local reality
supports Hypnosis. I disagree though with letting the hypnotizer support
the p-h suggestion with a long-range contradiction. Unless he stays with
the target or otherwise remains in constant contact with it (maybe he
implants a small radio in its ear) I would say that he is incapable of
supporting the contradiction. So if you hypnotize an edeinos in the
Living Land, as soon as it wanders away the p-h suggestion vanishes
because the contradiction isn't being supported.

-- 
Kansas Jim, Torg guru (ksjim (at) sdc (dot) org)
Torg website: http://www.sdc.org/~ksjim/index.html