[Torg] New Basic Skills

[Travis James Hall]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com 
> [mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of 
> Benjamin Grant
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2008 9:18 AM
> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> Subject: RE: [Torg] New Basic Skills
> 
> >>High skill adds. Thus if they are really stubborn, they 
> have more adds
> >>in that skill. Just like if someone was a crack shot, but otherwise
> >>undexterous. They have alot of adds in the skill in question.
> 
> This is not a personal attack, just my own personal opinion - 
> I do not find the answer of "just buy more skill adds" to be
> an acceptable solution at all.  I think that a character with
> an equal stubbornness but a lower Mind score having to pay so
> much more just doesn't add up.  Consider two characters, both
> of which are meant to have equal resistance to Charm and
> Persuasion, and equal strength of self-control, but the first 
> one has a 7 Mind and the second has a 12 Mind.
> 
> If all we have is Willpower then in order to be equal the 7 
> Mind character must purchase 5 skill levels.  If the 12-Mind
> character has a +1 Willpower, to have the same value (13) the
> 7-Mind character must have a +6 Willpower. The cost of a +6
> Willpower, is 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21 possibilities (it's actually
> somewhat different depending on factors like cost to get the 
> initial +1 in it and whether or not the character started
> with the skill.)

But for this particular comparison, this can be ignored, since we can simply
assume that the first add was purchased the same way for both characters.

> That's 21 possibilities.

No, it's not. It's 21 Possibilities plus a whole lot more. This analysis is
incomplete, as it ignores the cost of the Mind attribute. The value of 7
Mind, calculated in a similar manner, is 84 Possibilities, and the value of
12 Mind is 234 Possibilities. The raw Possibility cost for the examined
attributes of the two characters is 96 vs 236 (including extra cost for the
first add, assuming a teacher is available - 100 vs 240 otherwise). Not that
anybody is ever likely to buy their entire Mind with raw Possibilities, but
if Possibility value is used as a basis for comparison, that is the result.

Another approach would be to consider how such characters would reasonably
be built. The 7-Mind, 6-Willpower character is most likely built using 7
attribute points, 3 skill adds and 15 Possibilities. The 12-Mind,
1-Willpower character is likely built using 12 attribute points and 1 skill
add. This, on its own, lends itself to no firm conclusion, but rather to the
question, are five starting attribute points worth 2 skill adds plus 15
Possibilities, really?

Really, issues like this need to be examined with a far more holistic
approach. The two characters above are likely built on equivalent total
resources (if they appear in the same game). We should be asking, what else
are the remainder of their resources spent on? And do the characters derive
similar value from their overall abilities.

>From preceding conversation, the 7-Mind character might be taken to have an
extra five points in Spirit. Spirit has less associated skills. However, as
a raw attribute, Spirit might be more valuable. Mind skills might not be as
good as Spirit skills for non-specialised characters.

When the suggestion is to take a benefit packaged with Mind (resistance to
Charm and Persuasion), and give it gratis to high-Spirit characters, we have
to consider whether we are redressing an existing imbalance in the base
rules (at least as applied in a particular campaign) and if so, does the
change make suitable redress?

And that is a far more complex question then is answered by the statement
"21 Possibilities is a lot."

> Or to put it another way, a person with low intellect may be 
> easy to fool, but they are *not* necessarily easy to steamroll
> over -  usually quite the opposite.

In saying this, you point out a major flaw in your reasoning, but apparently
fail to note it. The Willpower attribute is, in terms of effect, resistance
to Charm and Persuasion. Forget "strength-of-will" - Willpower is no more
nor less than a lack of susceptibility to a glib tongue.

When was the last time you found yourself considering how charming and
persuasive someone was when he tried to conversationally steamroll you? Take
me, for example - I speak so bluntly that Phil recently felt it necessary to
point out how much he dislikes my attitude. (Phil, it's fine that you said
so - I'm just picking it as a useful example here.) That's steamrolling -
not charming, and any persuasion comes purely through the correctness of my
arguments, not through any social skill I display.

My approach is one to which a person who is just plain stubborn is unlikely
to respond well. This fact has nothing to do with the Willpower skill of
Torg.

But a charming or persuasive person is generally quite capable of social
trickery, and a person of limited intellect is, indeed, less likely to see
through such cons. Being stubborn is of limited use when a person doesn't
notice that he is being subborned.

Now, Willpower might get expanded use in many games. The name is such that
GMs are possibility oft-likely to misuse that skill without realising (and
that indicates that renaming the skill, to better match its game effect, may
be wise). Those who have Masterbook and/or Shatterzone might even wish to
check whether Willpower got moved in those games, and if so, was the game
effect of the skill updated as well? (A significant change in game
application means that it isn't really the same skill in those games, just
that the name got applied to a more fitting skill.) I suspect that practical
use of Willpower may have been somewhat expanded in published adventures
too.

I'm a big fan of decoupling skills from attributes (so that any skill might
be combined with any attribute, as befits the situation), but even then, a
given skill will usually be far more likely to be combined with certain
attributes than with others. Given the definitions of Torg's attributes as
written (poor as they might or might not be), I'd have to say that I'd still
most often be using a resistance-to-charm/persuasion skill in combination
with Mind, not with Spirit.

Travis Hall