[Torg] new screwy ideas for Spirit based skills

[Benjamin Grant]

FYI, this is a reply to Travis's response to my Spirit thoughts, but I would
welcome from any and all who have some ideas to give.  In other words, I
look forward to this conversation continuing with Travis and anyone else who
wishes to participate - you don't have to be Travis to reply to this. :D

>>Better question: Why do you think you need Spirit?
>>
>>You've dropped three out of the four Spirit skills. If there are any
>>mechanics associated with raw Spirit, there certainly aren't many.
>>Intimidation is all you have left, and the distinction between
>>Initimate and Test of Wills has never been particularly intuitive.
>>
>>Why not simply fold Intimidate into Test of Wills (possibly changing
>>the name to Intimidate as you go) and get rid of Spirit entirely?
>>Reduce starting attribute allotment by around 8, and everything else
>>should fall into place.
>>
>>Alternatively, do a proper redefinition of your attributes. Rather than
>>duplicating a whole bunch of skills which more properly fit in other
>>areas, provide a decent definition of your attributes for your
>>purposes, including renaming if you find the old names no longer
>>fitting, and redistribute mechanics appropriately. Perhaps replace
>>Perception, Mind and Spirit with Intuition, Intellect and Will (which
>>seem to be names in keeping with the direction you're already taking
>>Perception and Mind, with your right-brain/left-brain ideas). Get rid
>>of Test of Wills, perhaps replace with Test of Wits, move all other
>>determination/focus type skills to Will, and all thinking stuff into
>>Intellect. Feeling stuff goes into Intuition. (As one example.)

*This* is why I do not simply ignore or skip your posts Travis, because
often I believe you have a lot to contribute.  (This is not intended as
patronizing, but honest) Your question is a good one, and your ideas here
are meaty.  I think it boils down to essentially three options:

1) Beef up Spirit, as I suggested, with more skills - leave everything else
the same.
2) Delete Spirit, keeping only Str,Dex,Tou,Min,Per, and Cha.  Move any
needed Spirit skills to other attributes.
3) Reconfigure the attributes, such as by the idea above of Per,Min, and Spi
becoming Intuition, Intellect, and Will.

I think each of those three have good points, but first let me share a few
impressions, goals, and thoughts I have for whatever solution our group
winds up using.

It should be noted that even though I said we were not currently using Faith
or Focus, that's only because the world we have been playing in is limited
to a single supernatural power - super powers.  However, over the nigh 20
years or so I have been playing Torg, most of them included games where
Faith and Focus were available and worked.  So any change I do must also
include the potential to use Faith/Focus in the future.  Now, I can't
necessarily say the same about Reality, so we may as well continue to ignore
*that* skill.

Also, I have an understanding, impression, and/or feeling about the Spirit
attribute that I am struggling to put into words.  Be aware that this part
will probably not be polished, well-thought out, or free from problems.  The
below is also coming from me, not necessarily the Torg rulebook - although
the rulebook is also the inspiration, of course.

To me, Spirit and Charisma share the same kind of relationship that Mind and
Perception do.  That in a way, Spirit and Charisma are two sides of the same
coin, just like Mind and Perception are.  Where I can demonstrate that
relationship twixt Mind and Perception via my left-brain and right-brain
analogy, I struggle more to describe and define that partnership with
Charisma and Spirit.

I have always said that Charisma is someone's first impression of a
character, while Spirit is the lasting impression one gets over time,
although I am not sure what that means.  Given that Faith and Focus are
under Spirit, that also seems to present Spirit as the attribute that
fundamental connects people and builds communities, whereas Charisma seem
more about manipulation and short-term "handling" of people.

Someone with enormous Charisma, but low Spirit, I envision as a bit of a
flim-flam man - charming, great first impression, but leaves you with an
unpleasant aftertaste outside of his presence, which grows over time when
apart from the person.  Ultimately, one tends to over time see through the
"act" and realizes that this person is likeable in person, but full of
nothing and not to be taken too seriously.

On the other hand, someone with enormous Spirit but low Charisma I envision
very differently.  This person would be first perceived as awkward, hostile,
aloof, or some other disfavorable impression - *but*, if they let it show,
would seem very forceful, resolute, inspiring.  Overtime one overlooks the
socially and "first impression" deficits of this person and relates to their
inner core.

To me, Charisma isn't about strength and forcefulness, it's about
manipulation and getting what you want - about style and flash - about
pushing people, consciously or not, emotionally.  It's about putting a face
out there for people to see.  Spirit is about letting people see the real
you, and letting *them* decide how they feel about that.  It's about the
inner core, and about truth and substance.  And ultimately, it may be about
what we all have in common that connects us, the fundamental human "truth".

Thus I guess in my heart I do see a need for two different attributes,
whether they are called Charisma and Spirit or something else. But we might
as well continue using those terms, as I think they fit as well as anything.

SO this is why I guess I think it's important to not just move Intimidation
and jettison the Spirit attribute.  I want the option of having people with
high likeability and little substance, or low likeability and a strong inner
core, or both.  The game would just get to simple I think without both
sides, with Charisma *and* Spirit - the same way the game would be too
simple if we moved the Perception skills to Mind and tossed out Perception.
It would *work*, but something important would be lost.

>>
>>> Determination.
>>
>>Duplicate Willpower. Not needed.
>>
>>> Presence.  This skill is used to measure the force of personality.
>>
>>Force of personality = Charisma/Charisma skills, possibly a little of
>>Mind.
>>
>>> Sincerity.
>>
>>Charisma skill.
>>
>>> if you are not trying to deceive or mislead.
>>
>>Still a Charisma skill.
>>
>>> Leadership.
>>
>>Should be a Charisma skill.
>>
>>> Inspiration.
>>
>>Should be a Charisma skill.
>>
>>> 1)      I need a mechanic for Leadership, and I don't have one.
>>
>>It's just Persuade using One-on-Many. Even if it's a separate skill,
>>the mechanic is still applicable.
>>
>>> Also, if a character tries to Inpire
>>> a mob of 100, let's say, I probably need a way to determine how many
>>of
>>> the mob get inspired
>>
>>One-on-Many.
>>
>>Travis Hall

After thinking again about the 5 skills in the light of the current
discussion...

Determination:  I am considering more and more keeping this under Spirit and
removing Willpower entirely - or conversely, dumping Determination and
moving Willpower under Spirit, same thing.  Willpower is a very important
skill, putting it under Spirit only is justifiable in context and suddenly
makes Spirit much more needed.

Presence:  I still do not agree that this has anything to do with Charisma.
A higher Charisma means people like you more and tend to follow your
suggestions.  A high Presence does not do that - it is a forceful, even
pushy personal aura and as I said subsumes Intimidation.  Think of it this
way - with Charisma it's about manipulation and/or drawing people skillfully
in.  With Presence/Spirit it's about complete lack of subtlety and coercion.

Sincerity:  The intention is to be able to open a trusted dialogue free from
manipulation.  The kind of openness a religious leader might foster, even
when speaking with an unbeliever.  Like Spirit as I have described it, this
is an opening up, revealing oneself to scrutiny.  That is why I still think
this skill is defensible as a Spirit, not Charisma, based skill.
Nevertheless, I am not *wedded* to the idea, but it does continue to make
sense to me.

Leadership:  Faith and Focus bring the community together to create
Miracles.  I figured there ought to be a skill based on leading small groups
like adventuring parties, and what better attribute than the same one
priests use to build a community.  Again, true leadership is not about
manipulation or smooth talking someone - so not Charisma-based.  And true
leadership seems to not depend on left *or* right brain.  True leadership
seems to be about the base truths and experiences that connect us all
brining us together in common cause - this would seem to go right to Spirit
as I have described it above.

Inspiration:  There is a skill that some people have, that fills us with
purpose and gives us the courage and grit to pick ourselves out of the mud
and keep going, to ignore hardship and setbacks, keeping our eye on the
prize, and that fills us with hope.  I am calling that skill Inspiration,
and it too seems to fit nowhere else but Spirit.  Str/Dex/Tou are out.  It
has nothing to do with Analysis, so Mind is out.  Again, Charisma as I have
defined above is about putting on a front, a pleasant surface, not about
inner core type stuff.  And Perception seems too passive.  I again think
Spirit remains the natural fit.

Now, maybe I am entirely deluded, but given the concerns and approaches I
outline above, this all seems relatively sensible and consistent to me.

Now perhaps I will want to access the same kind of mechanic that Persuade
uses via one-on-many as per your suggestion, I will check that out.  I will
of course need to make sure to keep the effects separate - Persuade will
remain the skill you use to get people to go along, while Inspire just
yields minor buffs to defense, protection, resistances, and certain kinds of
negative sit mods.  And Neither Sincerity nor Presence will convince
*anyone* to agree with you or go along - Presence just makes people take you
seriously, while Sincerity makes them aware of when you are speaking from
the heart.  And Leadership is ultimately just a way to channel resources
such as possibilities and cards among the party because of the engendered
community.

I don't think Charisma and its skills are at all devalued or threatened by
the five suggested Spirit skills.

Thanks.

-Benn Grant
eFix Computer Consulting
benn at 4eFix.com
603.283.6601