[Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges

Fri Nov 14 17:05:25 EST 2008

Huh?  

>>The reason is that for 5 possibilities, using Edges, you could:

>>-- Raise your trained skill from a 1-2 (without a teacher) and have one
left over

Um, raising from a 1-2 costs two possibilities with three left over, doesn't
it?

>>-- Raise your trained skill from a 4 to a 5 with a teacher

With or without a teacher, it costs 5 possibilities to go from 4 to 5,
right?

>>For 10 Possibilities, using Edges, you could:
>>-- Raise your trained skill from 4 to 5 (without a teacher)

Again, doesn't this cost 5 possibilities, either way?

>>-- Raise your trained skill from 9 to 10 with a teacher.

And again, with or without a teacher, doesn't that cost 10 possibilities?

As far as balance, as I said, we have been playing with this mod for over a
year and it plays well in practice.  It is true that the more skills you use
that are under a single attribute, the more you may tend to get edges for
it, but that seems to work out in practice.  I guess if you think about it,
and you wanted to raise a single state over and over (like dex), it would be
a total of 5 for a +1 Edge, a total of 15 for a +2 Edge, a total of 25 for a
+3 Edge, a total of 35 possibilities for a +4 Edge, and so on.

Basically, this means that while a +1 or +2 is significantly cheaper than
normal, anything else costs the same or a lot more.

If it helps you, think of it as two extra attribute points that you can pay
for later at a good price, in case you wanted a little bit more oomph from
your character.

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
[mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Sam Frazier II
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 4:18 PM
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: Re: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges

*blink* Why 5 times? Is that some abtrary number, or does it have some
significance? Why not (x+y) * the number of attributes there are? 5 doesn't
really make any sense to me.

Considering a character built on 66 attribute points is already well above
average, I'm going to have to vote this as a bad idea. 

The reason is that for 5 possibilities, using Edges, you could:
-- Gain your first edge (Plus all the skills under the attribute)
-- Raise your untrained skill from a 4 to a 5
-- Raise your trained skill from a 1-2 (without a teacher) and have one left
over
-- Raise your trained skill from a 4 to a 5 with a teacher
-- Gain your first add in a trained skill
and a few more of the like.

For 10 Possibilities, using Edges, you could:
-- Gain your second edge (Plus all the skills under the attribute)
-- Raise your untrained skill from 9 to 10
-- Raise your trained skill from 4 to 5 (without a teacher)
-- Raise your trained skill from 9 to 10 with a teacher.

etc

and once you reach 24 possibilies (which is what you'd need to up the lowest
attribute a GM should ever allow, IMHO, up one) you start getting in the
neighborhood of equivalany between edges and how TORG currently raises
attributes. After this, the Edges start to become more and more expensive
compared to raising an attribute.

But I digress, that is the math side of things. 

Philisophically speaking I see a flaw in your reasoning.

You want to allow characters to buff their stats eaiser initially, and then
make it tougher for them later. Much like the method of raising skills (it
seems though that times 5 thing still boggles me). Well why? Why allow to
raise an attribute, which raises all the stats under the attribute for the
same cost as it would take to raise a begining characters skill? That is off
balanced.

Even allowing a second or third edge for 10 or 15 possibilities is
significant (considering someone could do that at a low level, not a medium
level character). The skills which could be raised for those possibilies
makes it very much an game system abuser's wet dream.

E.G.
Dex at 10, 7 skills, for 10 possibilies I can get 2 more Dex Edges raising
my 7 skills too.....Gee how can I say no? I'd be stupid not to use it.

Honestly I like the thought of the attributes costing 3 times the cost of
the attribute number you are heading too for the very reason I meantion
here. The skills associated with it that get raised along with it.

Also it makes sense. How hard is it to raise a normal humans attributes?
Even one number. 

Hope this looks like a method to allow more powerful characters than the
game expects. 

IMHO, if that is what you are going for, then start with characters with 68
-72 attribute points, instead of the 66. Or give the characters 1 attribute
point after so many advetures to demonstrate their ability to change their
characters natural abilities as they adventure. There is less game math
involved in each of those.

My opinion is it is a bad idea, and not to use it. BUT If it works for the
players and your game, by all means use it. The point of the game is to have
fun.

SDF II

  _____  

From: Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:50:11 AM
Subject: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges

I am not sure if I have sent this to the list, but I thought I would tell
you guys about this.

Out players from time to time want to buff up the underlying attribute after
character creation.  The normal Torg way is, I believe, to charge three
times the level to which they want to go.  So if they have an 8 Spirit and
want a 9, the cost is 9*3 = 27 possibilities. 

On the one hand, I want the character to be able to add the first bump or
two far cheaper, but on the other hand, I want following bumps to cost far
more.  I also want the cost to be more related to not the current level of
the stat, but how far from the level of the attribute at character creation
the player wants to go.  In other words, I want going from a starting
attribute of 8 to 9, and a starting attribute of 11 to 12 to cost the same.

So I created Edges.

Let's say a character has an 8 Charisma and an 8 Spirit.  They want to raise
their Spirit.  It can never become 9, but they *can* add a +1 Edge to their
Spirit, which has the same effect.  It is written like this: Spirit: 8+1

The cost of purchasing an edge is the total number of current Edges plus the
level of Edge desired, the entire quantity multiplied by five, in
possibilities of course.  And of course, you have to buy each Edge Level
separately, you cannot buy a +2 Edge in Spirit without first buying the +1
Edge in Spirit.

This means that if the player wants to go from CHA:8 and SPI:8 to CHA:8 and
SPI:8+1, that's going to cost him (the total number of current Edges + the
level of the desired Edge) times 5.  That's (0+1)*5 = 5 possibilities to get
his first Edge, he now has CHA:8 and SPI:8+1.

Now he is ready to add another Edge - he is deciding whether to add another
one to Spirit or to add one to Charisma.

If he adds it to Charisma, he will have to pay:

(total current Edges of 1 + level of desired Edge 1) times 5 = (1+1)*5 = 2*5
= 10 possibilities to go to CHA:8+1 and SPI:8+1.

However, if he instead does not add it to Charisma and goes for a +2 Edge in
Spirit, he will have to pay:

(total current Edges of 1 + level of desired Edge 2) times 5 = (1+2)*5 = 3*5
= 15 possibilities to go to CHA:8 and SPI:8+2

This illustrates that it is cheaper to spread the Edges around to multiple
attributes than it is to keep buffing the same attribute over and over - as
intended.

What do you guys think?  I can report that after having employed this
mechanic for over a year, it seems to work well in actual play.

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

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