[Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges

[Benjamin Grant]

That's a very interesting post, which I will need to reread and digest.  I
especially like that you gave a concrete alternative of "3*(new value - 4)"

One thing I struggled with when trying to come up with an alternate
attribute raising system was that I wanted three things to be true:

1) I wanted it fairly cheap to add one or two points - so that people could
do a little minor tweaking.
2) I wanted it to be cheaper to raise 2 attributes by 1 rather than raise 1
attribute by 2.
3) I wanted *strongly* diminishing returns that did not forbid continuing to
raise one's attributes, but made it increasing costly to a great degree.

I will have to reread your thoughts and also think deeper about your
specific recommendation to see if it comes close enough to me goals.

Thanks.

-Benn Grant
eFix Computer Consulting
benn at 4eFix.com
603.283.6601


>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:torg-
>>bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Travis James Hall
>>Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 8:31 PM
>>To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
>>Subject: RE: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
>>> [mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Sam Frazier II
>>> Sent: Saturday, 15 November 2008 11:00 AM
>>> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges
>>>
>>> A trained skill costs twice as much as untrained skills,
>>> whether you are first learning them or upping an add.
>>
>>No, it doesn't - not by the book. "To increase a skill costs a number
>>of
>>Possibilities equal to the skill add purchased. [snip example] To gain
>>the
>>first add of a new skill costs two Possibilities if your character can
>>find
>>a teacher, five Possibilities if self-taught. Gaining a skill that
>>cannot be
>>used unskilled costs five Possibilities if taught, 10 if untaught. If a
>>skill requires knowledge not native to your character's cosm the cost
>>of
>>learning the skill is doubled." Torg Rulebook, page 20, third column.
>>
>>There's a similar description in 1.5.
>>
>>Are you using a house rule in your games?
>>
>>
>>> A teacher halves the cost of learning skills.
>>
>>Again, not by the standard rules.
>>
>>> >>>As far as balance, as I said, we have been playing with
>>> this mod for over a year and it plays well in practice.  <<<
>>>
>>> It is comendable that it is working for your group. I'm glad
>>> to hear that, after all the point of the game is to have fun.
>>> But when I look at it, and I see how I and my group would use
>>> it, I see nothing but an abusable system to Munchkin behind.
>>
>>In some groups, "plays well in practice" means "abusable (and abused)
>>as all
>>hell, but we don't care because look how cool our characters are".
>>
>>On the other hand, within a single game, this system probably isn't
>>going to
>>cause too many problems. Why? Because it is so abusable that every
>>player
>>will use it - there really is no reason not to. And since the cost is
>>the
>>same regardless of the initial character build, the munchkining will be
>>evenly distributed across the characters.
>>
>>> Just give them an extra attribute after the first handful of
>>> adventures. It is easier. This is....scary.
>>
>>That's not the worst idea I've heard. It'll have pretty much the same
>>effect, and it's simpler.
>>
>>Benn, Sam has screwed up a couple of details, but has argument is
>>essentially correct. It looks like you've decided that you don't see
>>much in
>>the way of attribute increases, believe this to be a problem, and
>>solved it
>>by making attribute increases cheap. Now everyone has attribute
>>increases.
>>Problem solved, right?
>>
>>Well, no. In a good system, there will be several options, and each
>>will be
>>better in certain circumstances, or in order to achieve certain
>>results.
>>There will be pros and cons to each approach. This should result in a
>>variety of strategies for spending Possibilities (or XP or CP or
>>whatever
>>your system uses to regulate improvement).
>>
>>With this, you don't have such pros and cons. The first time a player
>>decides to increase an attribute, he will - not question about it - use
>>an
>>edge. It is so much cheaper that there is absolutely no chance he will
>>buy
>>up an attribute the regular way - not unless you are playing an
>>extremely
>>unusual game in which starting with a 1 in an attribute is really
>>viable.
>>
>>Given five Possibilities to spend after a character's first adventure,
>>there's virtually no chance those Possibilities will be spent on
>>skills,
>>either.
>>
>>Now, it could be argued that attributes are too expensive to raise
>>(compared
>>with skills). Sam tells us about how rarely he sees attribute
>>increases, and
>>this is the reason. Going from 8 to 9 in an attribute costs 27 points,
>>which
>>is enough to raise six skills from +3 (starting max) to +4. It's a rare
>>character for which it won't be cheaper to raise the skills while
>>achieving
>>largely the same results in actual play. It is advanced characters,
>>whose
>>skills will be much higher (and with correspondingly higher costs to
>>improve
>>further) who will be increasing attributes, generally.
>>
>>But if you want to make the point at which players will start seriously
>>considering attribute increases to come earlier in the game while still
>>retaining balance (that is, pros and cons for each option), your edge
>>system
>>isn't a good way to do it. You would be better off revising attribute
>>costs.
>>
>>For example, the cost to raise an attribute could be 3*(new value - 4),
>>so
>>that raising an attribute from 8 to 9 costs 15 Possibilities. This is
>>very
>>similar to the cost of raising all Spirit skills from +3 to +4. So now,
>>the
>>tipping point for when raising an attribute becomes cheaper is around
>>the
>>point when the character would otherwise be wanting to raise around
>>four
>>skills to +4, whereas before it would have been around when the
>>character
>>was wanting to raise those same skills to +7.
>>
>>You'd have to fiddle around with the values to get a system calibrated
>>right
>>(for whatever definition of "right" you have), but a big part of why we
>>don't see many attribute raises is simply because attributes start so
>>much
>>higher and the lower end of the attribute scale is barely used.
>>Compensate
>>for that, and you will see more attribute raises.
>>
>>(Just be a touch careful of such recalibrations, because the fact that
>>the
>>Rulebook has 17 skills under Dex and two skills under Strength means
>>that
>>fiddling with relative costings of attributes can see odd effects if
>>done
>>wrong.)
>>
>>Travis Hall
>>
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