[Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges

Sun Nov 16 16:01:23 EST 2008

dex 11 -> (1) 11+1 (5P) -> (3) 11+2 (20P) (maxed) 
str 10 -> (5) 10+1 (25P) -> (6) 10+2 (35P)
tou 9
per 11 -> (2) 11+1 (10P) -> (4) 11+2 (25P) (maxed)
min 9
cha 8
spi 8 -> (7) 8+1 (35P)

The above scheme which you work on seems correct according to how we do
edges - mind you, in order to get these edges, are you aware that you are
spending 155 possibilities!!

That's staggering!

So, yes, if you have one HUNDRED and FIFTY FIVE possibilities that you can
find a better use for, you could add 2 points to 3 attributes and 1 point to
a fourth.  And you didn't even get a +3 edge.  I hope you can see why I am
not super concerned about it.

However, the idea that Travis help me with may replace Edges in the future,
for our group:

Start off with 65 attributes points and 3 attribute Edge points.  At the end
of an Arc, you may do one of two things: 1) assign a maximum of one Edge
point (if you have any left unassigned) to an attribute, or 2) move an
already assigned Edge point from one attribute to another.

This will let the character tweak and improve their character over time, and
it's simpler than the Edge idea.  And its inherently limited.

In terms of racial limits, again we only use humans in our game, but while
13 is the max attribute you can start with, we permit people raising their
attributes to exceed that, on account of the "PC" effect.

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
[mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 1:50 PM
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: Re: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges

I believe the point is that they are not "combat" skills. You cannot use
them to inflict wounds, and their use does not imply there is combat. Yes,
they may be useful in combat, but combat is not what they do. Firearms,
Martial Arts, etc are not "showoff" skills, but they can be used that way;
they are combat skills because that is their primary purpose. And it seems
strange that in response to someone saying they did not use the term to mean
"things which are effective in combat" that someone say that those things
are very effective in combat.

Peeing in someone's eye is very effective in combat, does that make it a
combat skill? I think not. Useful in combat, and combat skills are
different. Competition skills (ie sharpshooting, martial arts exhibition and
boar breaking) are actually combat skills being applied differently and
outside their intended purpose.

This thread should die. It stopped being useful, or remotely based on the
topic a few messages ago. Though I would like an answer to my question (as I
have not seen it amongst the bickering that followed) which may have been
assumed to be common sense, but was not stated and I wanted it to be more
clear.

/-----------------
With edges, can a player achieve more than their racial limit due to normal
increases and edges being purchased, or has edges completely replaced the
ability to increase attributes in the normal fashion?

Example: A human buys 4 edges to have 9+4 (13), and then increases the
attribute from 9 to 10, giving them 10+4, which would exceed their limit.

Is that covered in the rules for edges, or are people just not doing it
because they assume they can't? Because personally, if the specified rules
don't say I can't do that, it would seem like that is part of its intended
purpose in keeping the numbers separate. Having 9+1 and 9+2, makes it seem
like I can then go to 10+1 or 10+2. If it is not intended to allow one to go
over their limit, the notation should consider a change where you actually
increase the attribute value, and enclose the number of edges that attribute
has next to it: 9 becomes 10(1), becomes 11(2). Or even another way is to
have them list their starting attributes on one side of their attribute
list, and their current attributes on the other side, though this might
require them to do some extra basic math when buying new edges.

And to touch on other peoples' notions of "it works for your group, and
that's great, but I think it should be altered, or simply the original
method," do you ever plan on bringing new people into your group? Think
about how a new person might come in and see that. Might they think it can
be abused? I can just imagine what would happen to our encounters if our GM
allowed the use of edges as they stand right now. Some of them take an hour
or more to complete as it is, though most don't. But if we had increases in
our stats with the ease of edges, even if its only that cheap for the first
add in each stat. I think my character would be almost broken after the
first 3-4 edges, as I would have maxed DEX and PER, and think what it would
do for a martial arts using psionist. Maxing out stats should never be that
easy. I just realized as well, that I could increase those stats to full
under your system without ever spending more than it would cost me to buy
them normally, even though it is edges 3 and 4. The fourth edge would cost
(3+2 = 5*5 = 25), but to take the stat from 12 to 13 would be 39, and then
starting on another stat would similarly reduce the cost back below what it
would cost for that stat normally.

dex 11 -> (1) 11+1 (5P) -> (3) 11+2 (20P) (maxed) 
str 10 -> (5) 10+1 (25P) -> (6) 10+2 (35P)
tou 9
per 11 -> (2) 11+1 (10P) -> (4) 11+2 (25P) (maxed)
min 9
cha 8
spi 8 -> (7) 8+1 (35P)

OK, that was me doing a quick run up on how I would use your system, becaue
I wanted to see it for myself, and I had to correct the math in the above
paragraph as I had made something cost more than it should've. But it seems
that for my current character, I can max 2 stats, nearly a third (which I
would probably do if I had the 45P to spend), without ever spending more on
an attribute than I would normally. It is not until the 7th edge that it
happens, and only because the stat being raised is a low enough number to
make it that way. I'm sure if I waited to increase the high stats until
later, I could make it happen that under your system, I don't spend more
possibilities on an edge than I would in increasing stats 10+ times. And I
seem to recall you saying that you want it to be prohibitive beyond the
first 2 edges. I'll play with my character and edges and see just how far I
can get before I need to spend more possibilities using edges than the
normal method.

Chris

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com> wrote:

Just off the top of my head,isn't Intimidation, Test, Maneuver, Trick, Taunt
all very effective in combat?  With Stymie, Setback, Up, etc results, isn't
that a good thing to do when fighting someone else?

-Benn Grant
eFix Computer Consulting
benn at 4eFix.com
603.283.6601

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:torg-

>>bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Travis James Hall
>>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 3:55 AM
>>To: torg at justintimeadventures.com

>>Subject: RE: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
>>> [mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Sam Frazier II
>>> Sent: Sunday, 16 November 2008 5:16 PM
>>> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges
>>>
>>> Have your way then. Since you can't see the combat
>>> effectiveness of the approved actions on the card, you aren't
>>> worth the time.
>>
>>Okay, guys, is anybody on this list other than Sam unclear on how I did
>>not
>>use "combat skills" to mean "skills which are effective during combat"?
>>Have
>>my several explanations of this since last night (my time) been unclear
>>somehow? Because if asked civilly, I'm happy to explain myself, and I
>>think
>>I've been more than accommodating in that regard.
>>
>>Sam, you're trolling. Must we have that here?
>>
>>Travis Hall
>>
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>>Torg at justintimeadventures.com
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