[Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges

[Chris]

I can actually get my stats to DEX 12 STR 11 TOU 10 PER 12 MIN 10 CHA 9 and
SPI 10 without ever spending more on an increase than I would under the
original system. That is a lot of increases, and I could do half of them
within the first two adventures. I think this is broken, personally. It
arbitrarily makes the heroes stronger than they should be. And yes, I could
find a fair amount of better use for those 155 possibilities, especially if
I had them all at once, which will likely never happen unless I get my hands
on something I shouldn't have access to for a year or more play time. It
just seems to front load a lot of stat increases, and no person of human
decent, elven or otherwise, should develop that quickly. It would basically
be on par with an X-gene activation, in my opinion. It is a sudden increase
in power that should take longer to develop. It should not be "easy" to
increase your toughness, nor should it be easy to increase your dexterity,
or other stats. These are things that should be hard to develop, and that is
shown in the method the game handles stat increases. You can train your
perception to be higher using the police example that we used previously in
another thread, however that is not something that can be done quickly or
easily, it takes a lot of effort, and a fundamental change in how your brain
operates. I do not believe it should be cheaper than is in the book. As I
said before, if I had access to your system, I would abuse the daylights out
of it. Martial Arts Psion with nearly max dex and per by the end of the
first adventure? Once they're maxed, I might work on MIN just to get some
better psi resistance, but I would likely be putting the rest of my Ps in
the appropriate skills for the rest of the game, and forgetting stats
because the ones I use are not going to get any higher, and it happened in
one or two adventures. Stat increases SHOULD require you to be well into
your character's development and well into the game, saving for them. They
should not be something you can accomplish as early as the first adventure's
end.

That is merely my opinion, and it is strange to find myself turning down a
system that would make my character so much more powerful so early in a
game, but I know what that would result in for the party, should we get that
powerful too early. Of course, despite this fact, when we started our
adventure, using the books, if I remember right, I went to a Kanawa Corp
building in Atlanta, and was by myself, since it was the second session, and
people were missing from our game that night (we had two people, me and the
driver). I went through the building, dealing with the robots, and the
ninjas, and the computers, all by myself, and escaped with my life. I'm not
sure how many people know what I'm talking about, but trust me when I say, I
don't want all encounters to turn into the difficulty that section of
adventure was for me. I feel your system would create that kind of
difficulty for the players in a lot of groups, as the increase in player
power increases the difficulty of everything they face.

Chris

2008/11/16 Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>

>  dex 11 -> (1) 11+1 (5P) -> (3) 11+2 (20P) (maxed)
> str 10 -> (5) 10+1 (25P) -> (6) 10+2 (35P)
> tou 9
> per 11 -> (2) 11+1 (10P) -> (4) 11+2 (25P) (maxed)
> min 9
> cha 8
> spi 8 -> (7) 8+1 (35P)
>
>
>
> The above scheme which you work on seems correct according to how we do
> edges – mind you, in order to get these edges, are you aware that you are
> spending 155 possibilities!!
>
>
>
> That's staggering!
>
>
>
> So, yes, if you have one HUNDRED and FIFTY FIVE possibilities that you can
> find a better use for, you could add 2 points to 3 attributes and 1 point to
> a fourth.  And you didn't even get a +3 edge.  I hope you can see why I am
> not super concerned about it.
>
>
>
> However, the idea that Travis help me with may replace Edges in the future,
> for our group:
>
>
>
> Start off with 65 attributes points and 3 attribute Edge points.  At the
> end of an Arc, you may do one of two things: 1) assign a maximum of one Edge
> point (if you have any left unassigned) to an attribute, or 2) move an
> already assigned Edge point from one attribute to another.
>
>
>
> This will let the character tweak and improve their character over time,
> and it's simpler than the Edge idea.  And its inherently limited.
>
>
>
> In terms of racial limits, again we only use humans in our game, but while
> 13 is the max attribute you can start with, we permit people raising their
> attributes to exceed that, on account of the "PC" effect.
>
>
>
> -Benn Grant
>
> eFix Computer Consulting
>
> benn at 4eFix.com
>
> 603.283.6601
>
>
>
> *From:* torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:
> torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 16, 2008 1:50 PM
>
> *To:* torg at justintimeadventures.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges
>
>
>
> I believe the point is that they are not "combat" skills. You cannot use
> them to inflict wounds, and their use does not imply there is combat. Yes,
> they may be useful in combat, but combat is not what they do. Firearms,
> Martial Arts, etc are not "showoff" skills, but they can be used that way;
> they are combat skills because that is their primary purpose. And it seems
> strange that in response to someone saying they did not use the term to mean
> "things which are effective in combat" that someone say that those things
> are very effective in combat.
>
> Peeing in someone's eye is very effective in combat, does that make it a
> combat skill? I think not. Useful in combat, and combat skills are
> different. Competition skills (ie sharpshooting, martial arts exhibition and
> boar breaking) are actually combat skills being applied differently and
> outside their intended purpose.
>
> This thread should die. It stopped being useful, or remotely based on the
> topic a few messages ago. Though I would like an answer to my question (as I
> have not seen it amongst the bickering that followed) which may have been
> assumed to be common sense, but was not stated and I wanted it to be more
> clear.
>
> /-----------------
> With edges, can a player achieve more than their racial limit due to normal
> increases and edges being purchased, or has edges completely replaced the
> ability to increase attributes in the normal fashion?
>
> Example: A human buys 4 edges to have 9+4 (13), and then increases the
> attribute from 9 to 10, giving them 10+4, which would exceed their limit.
>
> Is that covered in the rules for edges, or are people just not doing it
> because they assume they can't? Because personally, if the specified rules
> don't say I can't do that, it would seem like that is part of its intended
> purpose in keeping the numbers separate. Having 9+1 and 9+2, makes it seem
> like I can then go to 10+1 or 10+2. If it is not intended to allow one to go
> over their limit, the notation should consider a change where you actually
> increase the attribute value, and enclose the number of edges that attribute
> has next to it: 9 becomes 10(1), becomes 11(2). Or even another way is to
> have them list their starting attributes on one side of their attribute
> list, and their current attributes on the other side, though this might
> require them to do some extra basic math when buying new edges.
>
> And to touch on other peoples' notions of "it works for your group, and
> that's great, but I think it should be altered, or simply the original
> method," do you ever plan on bringing new people into your group? Think
> about how a new person might come in and see that. Might they think it can
> be abused? I can just imagine what would happen to our encounters if our GM
> allowed the use of edges as they stand right now. Some of them take an hour
> or more to complete as it is, though most don't. But if we had increases in
> our stats with the ease of edges, even if its only that cheap for the first
> add in each stat. I think my character would be almost broken after the
> first 3-4 edges, as I would have maxed DEX and PER, and think what it would
> do for a martial arts using psionist. Maxing out stats should never be that
> easy. I just realized as well, that I could increase those stats to full
> under your system without ever spending more than it would cost me to buy
> them normally, even though it is edges 3 and 4. The fourth edge would cost
> (3+2 = 5*5 = 25), but to take the stat from 12 to 13 would be 39, and then
> starting on another stat would similarly reduce the cost back below what it
> would cost for that stat normally.
>
> dex 11 -> (1) 11+1 (5P) -> (3) 11+2 (20P) (maxed)
> str 10 -> (5) 10+1 (25P) -> (6) 10+2 (35P)
> tou 9
> per 11 -> (2) 11+1 (10P) -> (4) 11+2 (25P) (maxed)
> min 9
> cha 8
> spi 8 -> (7) 8+1 (35P)
>
> OK, that was me doing a quick run up on how I would use your system, becaue
> I wanted to see it for myself, and I had to correct the math in the above
> paragraph as I had made something cost more than it should've. But it seems
> that for my current character, I can max 2 stats, nearly a third (which I
> would probably do if I had the 45P to spend), without ever spending more on
> an attribute than I would normally. It is not until the 7th edge that it
> happens, and only because the stat being raised is a low enough number to
> make it that way. I'm sure if I waited to increase the high stats until
> later, I could make it happen that under your system, I don't spend more
> possibilities on an edge than I would in increasing stats 10+ times. And I
> seem to recall you saying that you want it to be prohibitive beyond the
> first 2 edges. I'll play with my character and edges and see just how far I
> can get before I need to spend more possibilities using edges than the
> normal method.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>  On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com> wrote:
>
> Just off the top of my head,isn't Intimidation, Test, Maneuver, Trick,
> Taunt
> all very effective in combat?  With Stymie, Setback, Up, etc results, isn't
> that a good thing to do when fighting someone else?
>
>
> -Benn Grant
> eFix Computer Consulting
> benn at 4eFix.com
> 603.283.6601
>
>   >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:torg-
>
> >>bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Travis James Hall
> >>Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 3:55 AM
> >>To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
>
> >>Subject: RE: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
> >>> [mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of
> >>> Sam Frazier II
> >>> Sent: Sunday, 16 November 2008 5:16 PM
> >>> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Torg] Improving Attributes in play: Edges
> >>>
> >>> Have your way then. Since you can't see the combat
> >>> effectiveness of the approved actions on the card, you aren't
> >>> worth the time.
> >>
> >>Okay, guys, is anybody on this list other than Sam unclear on how I did
> >>not
> >>use "combat skills" to mean "skills which are effective during combat"?
> >>Have
> >>my several explanations of this since last night (my time) been unclear
> >>somehow? Because if asked civilly, I'm happy to explain myself, and I
> >>think
> >>I've been more than accommodating in that regard.
> >>
> >>Sam, you're trolling. Must we have that here?
> >>
> >>Travis Hall
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Torg mailing list
> >>Torg at justintimeadventures.com
> >>http://www.justintimeadventures.com/mailman/listinfo/torg
>
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