[Torg] Question: +3 or reroll?

[Benjamin Grant]

Follow-up, some thoughts my friend Jeff has had:

 

He pointed out that there is another choice to consider.  In the situation
where the player rolls a 9, then spends a possibility and gets a 17 for a
total of 26, there are *three* choices:

.         Spend a Hero Point for a reroll, covered in the original post

.         Spend a Hero Point for a +3, covered in the original post

.         Decline to spend any more Hero Points on this roll, saving the
resource for use later

 

Here's Jeff's thinking: Any time you roll poorly - say rolling a 1 through 6
- you risk a BN of -12 through -5.  That occurs 30% of the time.  If you
spend HP for a reroll in a situation of rolling poorly, your average reroll
(as shown before) is around a 13, putting you from a 1 through 6 to a 14
through 20.  In fact, here's a table of the 20 possible initial rolls and
the benefit of adding +13 to each of them in resulting BNs:

 


roll

BN

	+ avg reroll(13)

new BN

	BN change


1

-12

	14

1

	13


2

-10

	15

2

	12


3

-8

	16

3

	11


4

-8

	17

4

	12


5

-5

	18

5

	10


6

-5

	19

6

	11


7

-2

	20

7

	9


8

-2

	21

8

	10


9

-1

	22

8

	9


10

-1

	23

8

	9


11

0

	24

8

	8


12

0

	25

8

	8


13

1

	26

9

	8


14

1

	27

9

	8


15

2

	28

9

	7


16

3

	29

9

	6


17

4

	30

9

	5


18

5

	31

10

	5


19

6

	32

10

	4


20

7

	33

10

	3

					
average BN improvement

8.4

 

 

Thus we can see that on average we can expect a +8.4 BN by getting a reroll.
By choosing to employ the reroll when roll particularly badly - say 1-6 -
that BN boost goes up to 11.5 on average.

 

This means that after rolling a Die Roll of 26, spending a Hero Point on
*either* a reroll *or* a +3 needs to be compared to the value of accepting
the results as is, in order to use the resource of the HP later to greater
effect on a poorer roll.

 

The only piece that perhaps cannot be quantified is the value of getting the
extra BN *now*, when it may be more critical, as opposed to getting it
later.

 

Jeff also mentioned that usually when you are in the original situation of
having a higher total like a 26 (BN +9), that usually means that your action
total will be successful, so the question of whether or not to go further is
more about piling on Result Points or in the case of combat, Damage.  But
saving the HP to spend later when your total is quite possibly less than 10
or 15 leaves the question of whether the action total is high enough
completely in doubt (with only a BN of -12 to +3), making the value of
saving the HP for use in those circumstances possibly more useful than using
it now just to "pile on"

 

The Drama deck of course did not present this issue - it wasn't a choice of
"do I want to use an Adrenaline or a Hero card" but more of what cards do
you have in your hand.

 

It occurs to me therefore that the cards in the Drama deck do not have equal
utility or value, and that what makes you use an Adrenaline instead of a
Hero card is that  you have the Adrenaline in your hand and don't have a
Hero card.

 

With the Hero Point system, where you get to choose what effect you are
using, it may inevitable that some Drama Deck uses simply get ignored.  I
would love to find a way to make them Adrenaline's be useful, but perhaps
that is not possible, unless I buff up Adrenaline's to the point that the
spending the HP for the reroll becomes a worse trade, in which case I have
simply shifted the problem from one use to another, without solving it.

 

Thoughts?

 

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

 

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
[mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin Grant
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:14 AM
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: [Torg] Question: +3 or reroll?

 

In my game, we do not use the drama deck.  In its place the characters
receive 3 Hero Points (HP) at the start of each session, and any unused HP
at the end of the session is lost.  The HP can be spent for any card effect
except Escape, Monologue, Drama, Subplots, and card effects that manipulate
cards like Master Plan, Leadership, or Rally.

 

(One further note: we also use the Glass Jawed Ninja fix of adding a
person's offensive or defensive skill adds to their effect or resistance
values, as outlined here:

http://darleyconsulting.com/games/stormknights/gameplay/skillcombat.html )

 

This means, for example, that if a player wants to perform an Unarmed Combat
(he has the skill at +3 and a Dex of 12), and knows he is up against a very
skilled opponent, he knows he needs as high a result as possible.  Let's say
he rolls a 9, spends a possibility, and rolls a 17 - a total of 26 or a +9
Bonus Number(BN).  But what if the character wants more?  He has two
choices: spend a HP for a Reroll or spend an HP for an Adrenaline.

 

If he spend the HP for the reroll, he has ten chances to roll a +10 to his
Die Roll (since a roll of less than 10 is treated as ten when rerolling) and
ten chances to roll from an 11 to a 20.  That means that his average roll is
a +12.75, not counting the chance of getting another natural reroll through
a natural 10 or 20, which would raise that average somewhat.  If the player
already has a 26, adding +12.75 to that makes 38.75, for an bonus number of
+11 on average.  This means that a reroll spent when one is already at a die
roll of 21 or better only yields a +2 or +3, depending on how the chance for
natural rerolls improve the base chances and skew the average upward.  In
conclusion, his Dex of 12, his UAC of +3, and his +11 or +12 BN yield a
total of 26 or 27.

 

On the other hand, one can forgo the reroll and instead spend the HP for an
Adrenaline, which gives a +3 to a Dexterity related skill, such as Unarmed
Combat.  This means that his +3 UAC is now at +6 for this attempt.  He still
rolls an initial 9, spends a possibility and rolls a 17, for a 26 Die Roll,
which is a +9 BN.  +12 Dex plus +6 UAC plus +9 BN = 27.

 

Given that both choices yield very similar results, what's the difference?
Well, the reroll choice will be somewhat more random, but not as much as you
might think, since you can do no worse than a 10 added to your die roll,
which at the higher level of the BN chart yield a minimum of a +2.  No, the
downside is protected, but you can potentially luck out and roll much better
- even Glory territory!

 

So why would you choose to use your HP for an Adrenaline?

 

I am thinking, given the above conditions, you wouldn't.

 

This is why I am considering upping the value of the Adrenaline bonus from
+3 to +4.  This would I think make the choice of spending HP for Adrenalines
(and the like) more competitive with the choice of spending HP for rerolls
via the Hero card effect.

 

What are your thoughts, people?

 

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

 <mailto:benn at 4eFix.com> benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

 

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