[Torg] Any ever thought of or tried reversing/altering Torg's Metapower vs Advancement struggle?

Wed Mar 11 21:47:41 EDT 2009

Greetings, Jeff,

For my own self, I read Benn's post and understood he was not espousing a call to arms to change something in TORG but rather that he was requesting opinions on what to change.  My own responses were, at least so I intended, to give my opinion that I would not change the Possibility awards/enchancement/advancement system as currently exists.  I like the system and, moreover, believe it is the heart of the game's long-term "feel, soul, essence, and/or identity" [pick your monicker].  I might tinker with other aspects of the mechanics (and have!) but I would not touch the Possibilities system.

That which you consider to be a Bad Thing I see instead as a Necessary Thing.  I do not see it as "counter-intuitive" so much as I see it as being "simple," "brilliant," and "inevitable."  I appreciate the difficult choices that Bill and Bob have accepted, in contrast to Ted (as mentioned below), and I want them to make those choices, and as frequently as possible.  For my own games, I want Ted to have purchased his particular role in the game at the mathematically-necessary cost he has paid.  And, likewise with Bill and Bob, I want them to earn the future rewards that they have paid for with their current game behavior.  To me, this dichotomy is the most necessary aspect of the TORG game.  This basic mechanic system forces certain behaviors and choices which I want my players to encounter and make; the choices are necessary and to avoid making any such choices is itself a choice.  I care not which choice they choose, but each time they earn or
 might earn a Possibility point, I want that choice consistently encountered.

I hope this helps explain things.  I did not intend to try to force Benn to see things "in the light" but rather just to explain my own opinion.  As another game list of mine is fond of quoting, "YGMV" ... "Your Game May Vary."

:)
Michael

----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Clough <jeff at chaosphere.com>
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:02:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Torg] Any ever thought of or tried reversing/altering Torg's Metapower vs Advancement struggle?

Greetings!

I am the friend mentioned in the first post and figured this was as good a time as any to actually subscribe to the list as opposed to reading the archive online.  So, new to writing, old-hand at lurking.

I believe this thread got going as a result of a conversation with my friend Benn about the way Torg handles experience.  This was one of dozens of conversations we've had back and forth for years as we have both run and played Torg since, I don't know, 1995?  Without adding fuel to fire, my observation is this:

In Torg, you get these points called Possibilities, generally through rewards dished out at the end of every session and story arc.  These points are used to influence game-play "in the now" (re-rolls, avoiding damage, etc.).  They also do double duty as advancement points, allowing you to improve your character's skills.  I completely understand the dynamics of this situation, and that this situation exists.  I "grasp" the point completely.

What Benn was getting at, if I read him correctly, wasn't "This mechanic is bad and should be changed" but rather, "If you had the power to re-write that one aspect of Torg, what would you change, if anything?"

That said, here's the opinion that started it all.  This approach (Possibilities being used for both meta-gaming and character advancement) creates an opening for the following situation...

Bill, Bob, and Ted are all players in a Torg game.  Bill and Ted participate in each scene at an "average" level.  They spend a possibility here and there, use their cards and "let the dice fall where they may" about as often as the next player.  Bob, on the other hand, relishes a fight and dives in whenever possible.  He spends possibilities to compensate for poor rolls, but just as often uses them to improve on success, boosting his result points, getting in extra damage or otherwise taking center stage and really being the "go-to guy" for the group.

As a result of these choices, Bill and Ted will improve their skills faster than Bob.  This is a matter of simple mathematics.  Bob will spend more possibilities dealing with the bad guys, getting the good rolls and moving the story forward, and while RP-wise he might be having a grand time, his character's number-wise advancement will lag behind the other players.

I consider this a Bad Thing.  Any time game mechanics invites a player to think "I don't think that roll was enough to hit the bad guy, but I really want to save that possibility to improve my Taunt skill.  Screw it!", there's an issue, in my opinion.  I'm not saying I have a solution that maintains the "feel" of Torg, I'm simply pointing out a contradiction between the way Torg handles Possibilities and my own, personal aesthetics of how players should be rewarded for which actions.  Loving or hating how this works in Torg is just as personal a preference, but you at least have to admit that this situation exists.  Is it game-breaking, of course not.  I just believe it's counter-intuitive.  In most other game systems, the players aren't faced with a choice between success and character advancement.  Rather, success is *rewarded with* character advancement.

Of course some balancing act needs to be created so that the players aren't constantly pumping up their die rolls and shrugging off damage with no trade-off.  I just really wish a different mechanic had been chosen.  Maybe someone here will suggest one.

Jeff

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