[Torg] Any ever thought of or tried reversing/altering Torg's Metapower vs Advancement struggle?

Thu Mar 12 14:15:30 EDT 2009

Hello, Ben (and others),

I'm glad our replies have been helpful to you.  You are quite welcome to our wordiness.  :)

As to "dilemma" being a pejorative, I would say, no, not to my knowledge.  However, in my opinion, the word does often have a negative connotation to it, besides merely the neutral denotation (that is, a problem offering two or more possible solutions, neither of which is more preferred than the other, but to only choose one being unpreferred).  The negative connotation also comes from the "Catch-22" and "between a rock and a hard place" negative situations. 

That's mostly why I reacted against the word "dilemma."  You might consider substituting the word "choice" or "option" instead.  :)

However, possibly you do mean the word "dilemma" along with its negative connotations too.  Going along with this possibility, I would say that either option you put forth - (A) spend your possibilities only on game skill/power advancement and (B) spend your possibilities on in-game situational metapower to achieve more instant successes - is a bad option, if that's the only way you go.  To go to extremes with either possible alternative for spending one's possibilities is incorrect, to my way of thinking.  I would say, instead, that a character should walk the balancing line between the two, spending close to half and half.  But that ratio is approximate only, not set in stone, and only given for illustration purposes.

Michael

----- Original Message ----
From: Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:43:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Torg] Any ever thought of or tried reversing/altering Torg's Metapower vs Advancement struggle?

Thanks Michael, like Scott, excellent reply, and like Scott I will delve it
deeply when I get a chance, probably tomorrow, if that's ok - and I don't
want to reply until I get a chance to deeply read what you wrote.

One other matter I will note briefly as it seems to repeat - and this is too
most everyone - is everyone seeing the term "dilemma" as a pejorative?
Maybe like the guy in Princess Bride the word does not mean what I think it
does.  I thought dilemma (when used outside of logician circles) meant
having to choose one of two options that are incompatible, especially when
what is desired would natural be both?

In any case, I am not hung up on the word, I only used it because I thought
it would help, not hinder, the conversation.  All I meant ultimately is
that in Torg you can't have both, one must be sacrificed to some extent to
get the other.

And for the record, the "delicious" choice of needing to select only one in
each moment (do I spend the possibility and excel now versus keep it to
advance my skills) is a dramatic situation and IMO definitely has its place.
But being who I am, I cannot leave unexplored the idea of the alternate
approaches.

Thanks Michael (and Scott) - I have a lot to look forward to reading, and
will try to write back on both accounts soon, once I have fully digested
your ideas and observations.  Probably Friday or the weekend. :)

Oh, and Jim - I just found your replies, which although they predate the
others, I somehow missed until now - will address those too.

Thanks guys. :)

-Benn Grant
eFix Computer Consulting
benn at 4eFix.com
603.283.6601

> -----Original Message-----
> From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:torg-
> bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Michael Jason Teegarden
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:34 PM
> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> Subject: Re: [Torg] Any ever thought of or tried reversing/altering
> Torg's Metapower vs Advancement struggle?
> 
> 
> Hi, Benjamin,
> 
> You wrote:
> "In the meanwhile, would either of you who have already replied
> consider the
> other two options ( A - Metapower leads to Advancement, or B -
> Metapower and
> Advancement are separate) problematic?  To be less judgmental and value
> driven, in an objective way, what do you think games that employ
> alternative
> A or alternative B instead of Torg's approach would be like?  How would
> playing them be different from Torg?  What would be gained and lost
> (for
> both would happen) by drifting Torg in either way?"
> 
> Being one of the earlier responders, I would like to answer your
> questions.  I hope these are helpful in explaining my perception (ie,
> there is no "dilemma" but there is a "forced option").  I have
> considered options such as "metapower leads to advancement" and also
> "metapower and advancement should be separated," both being useful for
> certain games.  I've long played such games as Call of Cthulhu, and one
> successful, long-running campaign saw us using experience checks for
> skills as well as "luck points" for metapower effects (not just luck
> rolls, as per the straight system, but a number of luck points based on
> POW).  We liked the separation of metapower and advancement, but those
> two systems were deliberately chosen to help support the feel and
> atmosphere of the game itself.  In contrast, for the TORG game, we want
> a different feel/atmosphere.
> 
> What would games that use either A or B be like?  I would say they
> would have a less-dramatic and less-action-adventure-movie feel or
> dynamic or atmosphere to them.  For example, our group could not
> duplicate the feel of the Indiana Jones movies with Call of Cthulhu's
> or D&D's game systems.  To make that "feel," we would need to use the
> TORG game.  Instead, the atmosphere of the Cthulhu game (with luck
> points) would be closer to a psychological thriller-type horror movie
> (not blood and guts horror, but _Psycho_ or _Saw_ horror).  The
> suspense would be deeper than in TORG; the heart-pounding action would
> be less than in TORG.
> 
> Does that help to clarify things in the objective way I think you were
> asking for?  (Comparing different games, feels, atmospheres, and play
> styles is a tall order!)
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com>
> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:35:02 PM
> Subject: RE: [Torg] Any ever thought of or tried reversing/altering
> Torg's Metapower vs Advancement struggle?
> 
> First of all, thank you for the time and effort in your reply.  And
> while I
> am about to potentially differ from your thoughts, I want to b egin
> with my
> thanks for sharing them.
> 
> > Now, this may sound like variation on "it ain't broke, don't fix it".
> > I'd say it's more a comment on how a system that tries to let you
> have
> > your cake and eat it too is a system that is making a change that
> isn't
> > just about XP, it's about changing one of the fundamental foundations
> > of the game. Spending possibilities isn't about choosing advancement
> > over success. It's about risk versus reward and choosing what kind of
> > reward is more important to you.
> 
> I read through your post (and while replaying to this one, another
> similar
> reply) and do feel like while the response(s) evince effort in their
> construction, neither of them addressed the questions I was hoping.
> Both
> seem to be more of a "Whoa, there! Let's not cross this line here..."
> type
> of replies.
> 
> If you both feel this way about Torg and about the general worthiness
> of the
> Metapower vs. Advancement Dilemma (or the lack of there even being a
> dilemma) than I would expect nothing different.  However, I must admit
> that
> the dilemma seems obvious to me.  For each possibility you spend on
> Metapower, that's one less possibility you can spend on Advancement.
> Or
> vice versa, for each possibility you spend on Advancement, that's one
> less
> possibility you can spend on Metapower.
> 
> Consider: Let's say the GM keeps track of how many possies the player
> spends
> and makes sure to award them that many in the Arc Award.  Well, that
> just
> means that the player gets to spend metapower resources for free - in
> addition to the awards the player was going to get if he *hadn't* spent
> those resources during the arc.  It avoids the problem by throwing out
> the
> baby with the bathwater.
> 
> It is so obvious a point to me, that I can't imagine that it makes any
> sense
> to try to demonstrate it further.  If it's not obvious to one, then
> perhaps
> it will never be.
> 
> However, given that there IS a real choice between the use of possies
> as
> Metapower and Advancement - that you can't have both - then so far the
> two
> respondents have said variously 1) this is a GOOD thing (which is a
> possibility I included) and 2) Without that it cannot be considered
> Torg.
> 
> To answer that in reverse order - Torg doesn't stop being Torg just
> because
> you decide that Arc awards will be skill points and Act awards will be
> possibilities - unless ANY house mod or rule change makes the game
> being
> played "not Torg".  Frankly, that is insupportable.  Torg or not-Torg
> isn't
> black and white, it's a continuum from lightly modified Torg to heavily
> drifted Torg - and even what is considered "light" or heavy" is in the
> eye
> of the beholder.  Some may find Jasyn Jones' GJN fix more heavy than
> the
> idea of separating Act/possy and Arc/Skill awards.
> 
> So in a nutshell, I am taking from the two responses so far two votes
> for
> "Metapower vs Advancement is a good dilemma".  I hope to receive
> further
> responses that stray from the party line and show a great breadth and
> diversity of opinion and approach.
> 
> In the meanwhile, would either of you who have already replied consider
> the
> other two options ( A - Metapower leads to Advancement, or B -
> Metapower and
> Advancement are separate) problematic?  To be less judgmental and value
> driven, in an objective way, what do you think games that employ
> alternative
> A or alternative B instead of Torg's approach would be like?  How would
> playing them be different from Torg?  What would be gained and lost
> (for
> both would happen) by drifting Torg in either way?
> 
> Thanks guys.
> 
> -Benn Grant
> eFix Computer Consulting
> benn at 4eFix.com
> 603.283.6601
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:torg-
> > bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schultz
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:59 PM
> > To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> > Subject: Re: [Torg] Any ever thought of or tried reversing/altering
> > Torg's Metapower vs Advancement struggle?
> >
> >
> > I think you'll find that this is the last group in the world where
> > you'll have to be criticized on the basis of "if it ain't broke don't
> > fix it". *heh*
> >
> > Here's the thing that your friend hasn't quite grasped (or maybe it's
> > his gamemaster): Your total "income" of possibilities over the course
> > of an adventure is normally positive, in spite of, or even BECAUSE
> of,
> > judcious spending of your possibilities. Every act has a built-in
> > possibility award and the end of an adventure typically has a bonus
> > possibility award. This is no different than games that have "XP". If
> > you're an MMO player, you've seen this model, where you get a certain
> > amount of XP from "killing stuff" and then you get a bonus at the end
> > of the mission.
> >
> > TORG is designed around the same engine. Instead of XP, you get a
> > possibility allowance at the end of each act. At mission's end, you
> get
> > a bonus. The size of the reward is dependent on the GM, the
> adventure,
> > and how he feels about your gameplay. Like any other RPG, your TORG
> GM
> > is likely to reward compelling or fun gameplay with extra
> > possibilities. Spending possibilities creatively adds to the fun,
> which
> > generally adds to the rewards.
> >
> > Sure, there will be times where you have to make a choice between
> > gameplay or advancement, but if your friend feels like he's making
> that
> > choice constantly then either your GM is being stingy with the
> rewards
> > or your friend needs to get out of the min/max powergamer mindset
> that
> > says that all possibilities must be hoarded towards advancement. The
> > game is designed with the idea that there's a balance between the two
> > goals and part of "playing right" is achieving the right balance.
> >
> > Now, this may sound like variation on "it ain't broke, don't fix it".
> > I'd say it's more a comment on how a system that tries to let you
> have
> > your cake and eat it too is a system that is making a change that
> isn't
> > just about XP, it's about changing one of the fundamental foundations
> > of the game. Spending possibilities isn't about choosing advancement
> > over success. It's about risk versus reward and choosing what kind of
> > reward is more important to you.
> >
> > Ultimately, though, I'd say that a typical gaming session should make
> > you feel that you succeeded at both goals - game success and
> > advancement. As I said earlier, if you feel like you're constantly
> > stuck with one or other, then your GM should probably start pumping
> out
> > more possibilities as mission rewards.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Torg mailing list
> > Torg at justintimeadventures.com
> > http://www.justintimeadventures.com/mailman/listinfo/torg
> 
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