[Torg] Any ever thought ofor triedreversing/altering Torg'sMetapower vs Advancement struggle?

Thu Mar 12 17:35:35 EDT 2009

Benn,

                While, try as I might, I can't be Morgan, I'll take your
invite to have him point out specific issues with the nature (not content)
of what you have said as extending to people who aren't, for whatever
reason, Travis, and I'll respond to it.

                    Your first email on this topic included the phrase: "so
long as the people are open minded and not just pumping out the party line."
The idea that there is a party line in the Torg list is offensive, and
frankly when I read that it was clear that, whatever else you were looking
for, you were looking for a fight.  I decided not to add to the conversation
(not that I had much to add anyway. J ) based solely on that phrase
appearing in your email.   Here we are with what is currently the last email
in the thread and look, you've found your fight.  Even in this email you
assert "after all the energy and hours I have invested here, it is so far a
nigh total loss", ignoring not only the reasonable discussion by people who
like the current system, but also ignoring the discussion by Jim and others
of exactly what you wanted to talk about.

Anyway, my 2c.
Thanks,

Peter

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
[mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin Grant
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:28 AM
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: RE: [Torg] Any ever thought ofor triedreversing/altering
Torg'sMetapower vs Advancement struggle?

Although I am pleased to say I have written off Travis (on account of the
time and energy I should save, as well as the savings in my sanity), I am
not unwilling to have you, Morgan, point out any specific issues with the
nature (not content) of what I have said on this topic in this interchange.
Of course, you understand that my impression, and that of several others of
my peers, is that it is I who am being attacked for daring to ask what-if -
that my innocent exploration is making certain folk get irrationally
defensive.   But feel free to demonstrate otherwise.  Just so long as
nothing you use in your demonstration has anything to do with any
interchanges I have had with Travis, which is obviously its own thing, with
him getting only what he has earned.

In any case, while I am *willing* to talk with you about *your* topic, I am
certainly more interested in someday in getting an actual reply on the
actual subject I posted many time, a reply that isn't defensive or
offensive, but merely both on-point and friendly. J  

Or to put it another way, after all the energy and hours I have invested
here, it is so far a nigh total loss.  Will anyone step up to make that
different?

Probably not, but surprise me. J

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

benn at 4eFix.com

603.283.6601

From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
[mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Morgan Nash
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:11 AM
To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
Subject: Re: [Torg] Any ever thought ofor triedreversing/altering
Torg'sMetapower vs Advancement struggle?

I'm going to say something. I really don't want to because I've tried to
stay out of these arguments for my own sanity but I feel I have to.

Benn, I agree that Travis can be pretty darn aggressive in his language
sometimes but not everything you quoted above is an attack. However, I have
actually had to stop replying to any discussions on this group that you
start because of your own attitude towards those that disagree with you.
Your words are frequently dismissive, high-handed and inflammatory and you
regularly state opinion as fact.

Until you (and others) learn to phrase enquiries in a manner that actually
invites polite discussion rather than seeming to merely seek affirmation of
decisions that have already been made, people will get annoyed. Moderate
your own words, gentlemen, and others will do the same. The alternative, as
I have done, is that readers will simply not reply to requests for input as
nobody wants to be constantly brow-beaten.

Morgan

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Benjamin Grant <benn at 4efix.com> wrote:

" Come on, let's have some real discussion, not just denial."  is an attack.

" I think you need to look more closely at your definition of success and
the reward scheme in use in your game." used in your context is an attack.

" Seriously, Ben, you need to get out from under your rock." is an attack.

" Don't be ridiculous." is an attack.

" If you don't want me to talk about these things, don't bring them up." is
an attack.

" But make up your own damn mind." is an attack.

The above statements, the way you used them, the tone you used, and the
context they were in your posts, are all attacks.

I do not need to say more.

-Benn Grant
eFix Computer Consulting
benn at 4eFix.com
603.283.6601

> -----Original Message-----
> From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com [mailto:torg-

> bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of Travis James Hall

> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:52 AM
> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> Subject: RE: [Torg] Any ever thought ofor triedreversing/altering
> Torg'sMetapower vs Advancement struggle?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com
> > [mailto:torg-bounces at justintimeadventures.com] On Behalf Of
> > Benjamin Grant
> > Sent: Friday, 13 March 2009 1:43 AM
> > To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> > Subject: RE: [Torg] Any ever thought ofor
> > triedreversing/altering Torg'sMetapower vs Advancement struggle?
> >
> > Ahh, I recall (I think).
> >
> > Travis, you are the one that makes things personal and often
> > strays from civility, right?
> >
> > ;p
>
> ...he says, making the thread's first personal attack.
>
> Look, it's a simple principle. If you don't want to talk about
> something,
> don't talk about it. If you do, you put it on the table for discussion.
>
> Travis Hall
>
> _______________________________________________
> Torg mailing list
> Torg at justintimeadventures.com
> http://www.justintimeadventures.com/mailman/listinfo/torg

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