[Torg] Fortune and the Future (was: The Magic Axiom Chart)

[Jasyn Jones]

On Feb 2, 2010, at 4:15 AM, Phil Dack wrote:

>> From: Jones Jasyn <jasynj at gmail.com>
>> 
>> On Feb 1, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Phil Dack wrote:

>>> does low Axiom fortune telling perceive the future or does it harness symbols 
>>> to help make a specific future come about? 
>> 
>> As with all other such issues, the answer is not found in the canon, and is a 
>> matter of individual interpretation. Here is mine:
>> 
>> In Torg, there is such a thing as chance—random outcomes. There is also such a 
>> thing as choice—people can choose to take certain actions. There is also such a 
>> thing as Fate—some things are meant to be.
> 
> I agree with these. Chance, Choice, Fate. Is there a way of linking these to the axioms? 

Chance and choice are fundamental parts of the metaphysics of Torg, chance arising from the nature of PE itself and choice being the defining characteristic of the Living.  Choice is what makes the Living, Living.

Fate (destiny, predestination) is a concept dealt with in religions, as a metaphysical belief. Prophecy (a spiritual concept), if true, must be about Fated events. However, Fate is as much a concept of magic (via omens, fortunetelling, etc.)

Are all Fated events caused by the Divine? Saying "yes" makes the game less ecumenical.

Are all Fated events Magic? Again, a "yes" makes the game less ecumenical.

I find it simpler to posit that some things just are Fated. What caused this Fate varies from cosm to cosm and event to event. It may be an expression of the PE of a cosm, it may be a Divine decree, it may be a result of Fortune. Fated events are singular and exceedingly rare, and as such have no definite cause that appertains to all of them.

But, we're far beyond the canon here and any other answer is just as valid as mine.

> Chance relies on the magic axiom. The higher the magic axiom, the more random events occur.

Actually, as I understand it, the Magic axiom exists to make the universe *less* random. Luck is about reducing randomness: instead of any old thing happening, something good happens. A curse is less randomness, in a harmful direction.

At a 0 Magic, the laws of physics are immutable and pure randomness (probability, to be more exact) governs events (decay of radioactive substances being the chief example). Superstitions give people the belief that the random and arbitrary nature of the universe can be moderated, guided. Superstitions seek to protect one against random events.

>> fortune-telling cannot cause events, what it can do is affect the actions people take.
> 
> This is probably where I disagree with you. It strikes me that magic is about using symbols to create supernatural effects. Fortune telling uses symbols to create the supernatural effect of perceiving the future, but might not the act of fortune telling also be a symbol that influences the future?

Well, by my own definitions (Curse you, Phil Dack for using my own words against me!), low level magic involves symbols influencing (not dictating, influencing) future events. That is the inextricable essence of superstitions.

Can influencing the future happen at those axiom levels? Certainly. Can the reading of an omen, or fortunetelling cause it? It might. Not in every instance, and not in a provable manner, but yes, it can happen and thus would happen sooner or later, somewhere. The internal logic allows for it, if not compelling it.

> I think this then reaches its apogee at Axiom 21 (or 33) when magic rules all, such that divination does entirely create the future,

Now I'll whip around and say "I don't think this is a good idea." (Obviously, based on my personal standards for what is good in this particular instance.)

When fiddling with metaphysics and axioms and the future, I've tried to keep in mind that Torg is a game and concepts must be tailored so as to be gameable. Absolute ability to predict future events or to dictate future events is an ability that PC's should never have. (NPC's either, for that matter.)

Not because it's game-breaking, though it probably is, but because gamemasters simply cannot predict the future. Between cards and dice and the perverse desire of players to go in a direction you never considered, predicting them is impossible (for most gamemasters, most of the time).

In a fictional universe I myself created and have total control over, predestination and exact predictions would be cool things to play about with. The Phillip K. Dick stories that "Minority Report" and "Paycheck" are based on are all about seeing the exact future and altering it (the movies too, if not as cleverly). Dune, as well. It's practical, in a story or novel, because the writer dictates all events, and can force characters to bow to prophecy.

Forcing players to bow to prophecy seems like a bad idea. The concepts do not seem gameable. IMHO.

So, when formulating the definition of Fortune (the tripartite concept encapsulating choice, chance, and fate), I specifically excluded magic from having the ability to dictate Fortune. To influence, certainly. To bend probabilities, yes. To dictate, no, not ever.

> The reason I think this will occur is  because of the ubiquity of wish magic. It strikes me that the natural consequence of a population of wish parsers is that each will end up living in their own parallel universe, as that's the only way that each individual's wishes can remain consistent without being contradicted by everyone else's wishes

Good question: "Is a Magic 21 reality absolutely deterministic?"

No, and here's why:

Even at axiom 21, wishes have limits. They are limited by the ability of the living being to formulate their desire and concentrate on it. Less willpower, wishes are more difficult for you.

Also, even in wishes, magnitude matters. Affecting a huge thing, such as a mountain, is more difficult than affecting a small thing. Affecting a huge area, more difficult than affecting a small area. Creating something permanent, more difficult than creating something temporary. And so forth.

Wish magic cannot absolutely dictate what occurs, because each person is limited in willpower. In Tech, even axiom 21 has to conform to physical laws. At Magic 21, wishes are limited by the nature of the supernatural and the mental strength of the wisher.

Jasyn Jones
jasynj (at) gmail (dot) com

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
Ulysses, Alfred Lord Tennyson

Check out my Torg webpage, Storm Knights:

darleyconsulting.com/games/stormknights/