[Torg] Delurks and Review

Tue Feb 16 04:36:44 EST 2010

Lev,

nice to see that Torg's name is still out there! However, I'm sorry to say I'm not a huge fan of the article, which feels very dry and would, IMHO, benefit from more "pointing" for the reader with headings and introductions.

I also disagree strongly with some of yoru conclusions. The Axiom scale does not represent the net worth of a realm, so the fact that one realm only adds up to 38 and another to 71 does not have any impact on game balance whatsoever. The axiom is a key part of defining the feel and genre of that realm. Artificially changing axioms as youi have done fundamentally changes how those realms will play. Furthermore, at a metaphysical level, you need to go back and recreate that realm - if you're going to give the Living Land a magic axiom, you need to put in magical traditions for the Living Land, and explain how these are reconciled with the deterministic religious state where all things come from Lanala. It really makes no sense at all. And that's me being polite!!

In describing interpersonal skills, I think you've missed two of the most important elements. One, the emphasis on "non-combat" interactions on the drama deck meaning that the system actively encourages combat actions that are more than just attack and defend. Second, that the interpersonal system works equally AGAINST the PCs as it does for them, forcing players to think hard and roleplay hard whenever they're in a social situation.This, while not unique, is a feature that is core to the game's goal of having rules enforce genre convention. Not universally popular, as a concept this is still controversial even now (I could reference some debates on the Hero Systems board just this year on the same issue!)

Your reference to the Glass Jaw Ninja is accurate, but your proposed solution is not, unless you adjust values of armour, weapons and toughness across the game. There are other solutions around though, so I'm sure we could find some web references if you're interested!

I'm not sure why you think the lighter style of the GM book is a negative. Certainly that's the implication of what you write. To me, it was a positive, and made it a very readable text - and one of the better "How to GM" guides that I've read (an honourable mention here to D&D3.5 DMG as well).

I'd like to know what you meant when you say the game "diverges from well-known conventions". I would think that, particular in the 21st century RPG world of indie games, there are no longer any true conventions in the RPG world. Except perhaps Stat+Skill+Die roll, which seems to be the mechanic of choice for most games now! I'd also debate the point about high level of randomness relative to the scale. The die roll, while a d20, actually clusters quite tightly, so that most rolls will only give a -2 to +2 variance. In my experience, this actually is quite a low level of randomness, meaning that if you want to attempt an action, your skill needs to be pretty much within 2 points of the DN or you're taking a big risk (tho this excludes the impact of Ppoints and Cards of course).

I'm also not sure you've got your RPG genealogy right. I think Torg came out when crunch was perhaps just past it's peak, but it certainly didn't come out at a time when rules light was starting to dominate, which I'd argue was later in the 90s. In fact, Torg's biggest problems were probably three-fold: 
1. Too many "essential" rules were in the supplements, meaning GMs required (or at least, they felt they required) to make a big investment to play the game. This was certainly true of me. I didn't run a game of Torg until I had all the cosm sourcebooks, just in case there was stuff in there I "needed" to know. As it happens, this isn't true, but references to forthcoming supplements in the Torg boxed set reinforced this suspicion.

 2. The metaplot was hard to sustain and inevitably lead either to divergences or to static campaigns as they waited for the next supplement, and 

3. White wolf came along and blew the RPG world apart with their darker gothic vision, against which Torg's largely cinematic / four-colour feel and style quickly became extremely unfashionable.

I won't go through and comment in detail on the rest of your review, as it would get a bit silly owing to the length. A few short comments though:
1. Ayle - I can't see reference to the Light/Dark dichotomy which is fundamental to how this genre operates.
2. Supplements you don't have - it's hardly a comprehensive review then! However, I'd suggest that the length of commentary on the supplements you DON'T have is probably nearer the length that your comments on the supplements you DO have should be. I'm a Torg fan and I was switching off half way through... :-)
3. Similarly with the lack of introduction, the article really needs a conclusion too. It would give it more shape and vastly improve it's "readability".

Hope you take my criticism in a positive light. We Torgians are not known for our diplomacy skills and I've seen few e-fights like the ones we've managed to generate on this list. But my comments are meant in a helpful way, and are based on my many years of Torg experience as well as my job as a professional writer (albeit that I write business reports and such like!!)

regards,
Phil

----- Original Message ----
> From: Lev Lafayette <lev at rpgreview.net>
> To: torg at justintimeadventures.com
> Sent: Tue, 16 February, 2010 2:36:33
> Subject: [Torg] Delurks and Review
> 
> Hi Torgites,

I'll take (a) an opportunity to delurk (b) to mention how 
> glad I am to
see that this game still have a strong fan-base and (c) mention 
> that I
recently wrote a lengthy retrospective and review of Torg an a 
> 'zine
that I edit (> target=_blank >http://rpgreview.net/files/rpgreview_6.pdf).

I am 
> thinking of making a few modifications to the review before putting
it up 
> elsewhere, and would appreciate any critical comments the good
people here 
> might have. After all, I readily admit to hardly being that
experienced with 
> playing the game whereas many of you here have a great
degree of 
> expertise.

All the 
> best,

Lev

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