[Torg] Dominick's view on Traditions

[Jasyn Jones]

On Feb 18, 2010, at 5:45 PM, Dominick Riesland wrote:

> Magical Traditions, as far as I understand the concept, refers to the
> trappings of magic as espoused by a group of magicians.

Depends on what you mean by "trappings." Magic isn't an indivisible whole any more than religion is. Buddhists are not Christians are not Animists. Traditions differ from one another just as much (or as little) as one culture differs from another or one religion differs from another.

Traditions differ from one another as much (or as little) as D&D magic differs from Mage: The Ascension Magic, or Shadowrun magic, or Deadlands magic, or Ars Magica magic.

Those differences aren't small or inconsequential.

I understand your assertion. I understand your view. If I could analogize:

"Different traditions are like different sports teams who play the same sport. Sure, the Raiders have different uniforms than the Browns, have different cheerleaders, and even a different playbook, but it's all football and they're all playing the same game by the same rules. Being able to change teams isn't a matter of Axiom advances. You can do it at any time."

This view (and I believe I have restated it correctly) is incorrect, as it pertains to the definition of Tradition that I am using.

> The most
> likely explanation is that one magician, or maybe a small group,
> discover certain magical symbols and principles and use them to build
> a body of spells and rituals that are indicative of that group's
> development of magic.

That is an assumption I have not made and while not being precluded, it would be the minority of cases, given the internal logic of Magic. Not all Traditions come into being the same way, very few evolve in a manner analogous to Technology, and all involve factors that are real, not stylistic.

> In Jasyn's view of the Magic Axiom, these are the impetus by which
> magic develops.

No. Traditions are an intrinsic and unavoidable consequence of the Fundamental Principle of Magic (symbolic manipulation). They are there because, if I build an axiom off that, they have to be there.

It's a function of what symbols are and where symbols originate and how they function psychologically and socially. Traditions are an inevitable consequence of symbols.

More, they are present in the extant game.

> However, all of these, in theory, can be combined into a single form.

In theory (and practice), all of the fundamental forces of quantum mechanics can be combined into one force (electricity, magnetism, etc.). That doesn't mean that the differences between gravity, magnetism, and the strong nuclear force are meaningless or inconsequential. More, understanding those differences and overcoming them is certainly a function of the Tech axiom.

> That combination leads me to the conclusion that Traditions are merely
> a self-imposed concept

No more (or less) than culture is. Keep this in mind, for a little bit later.

More, in the game, there are clear differences between the Occult, Engineering, and Ayslish magic. Those differences cannot be easily bridged. Ayslish magicians can't cast engineering spells. That is a real constraint.

And isn't lifting that constraint perfectly axiomatic?

Axiom A: Cannot cast engineering spells.
Axiom B: Can.

More, even if they were just self-imposed constraints, why would that mean they have nothing to do with axioms?

Axiom A: Self imposed constraints matter.
Axiom B: We've learned enough to overcome self-imposed constraints.

How isn't that a valid progression for an axiom chart, especially one built around the primacy of symbols?

Back to culture:

Traditions are an expression of culture (as folklore hints at).  Cultural taboos and mores are not "self-imposed".

One can posit (correctly, given all evidence) that a person raised by the Huns would have different values and behavioral norms than the same person would if raised by the Quakers. They are the same person, but their social environment shaped them differently.

Culture imposed differences on them, the differences are real and strong and not easily or lightly changed.

Traditions arise from culture, and cultural differences matter.

> While there are many
> different styles of Martial Arts, they all use similar maneuvers,

I am sure that this analogy isn't a good one; the two phenomena aren't contiguous. Also, I am very sure that this statement is, as a matter of factual truth, incorrect.

This doesn't invalidate your point, it doesn't prove you wrong, I just think this analogy isn't going to establish your case. However, I do understand what you mean (see football, above).

And I believe you are using a definition of Tradition which has little or nothing to do with mine—even if you think they're similar or functionally similar—and hence your claim that Traditions have nothing to do with axioms isn't true.

In extant Torg, Ayslish magicians cannot use Engineering spells or cast Occult rituals without learning new skills, that is, learning how the other Tradition works. Core Earth theme magics cannot cast spells inconsistent with their theme, even if their axiom otherwise allows for the spell effect.

Those are game-mechanical constraints, metaphysical truths, they are as real for characters as any other game mechanic, and not self-imposed.

So, either those constraints hold at all Axiom levels, or they don't hold at all, or they hold until more advanced Magical techniques and capability—a higher Axiom—allows those constraints to be overcome.

Your argument would lead to option 2: "Don't hold at all." Option 1 is out, because if they're self-imposed and easily overcome, any restrictions like these are invalid. Option 3 is what you're explicitly ruling out.

Option 3 ("Such constraints matter until a high enough Axiom.") matches with the extant rules, with real world magics, with magics in fiction and magics in RPG's.

Given the principle I discovered, given the goals I worked towards, Traditions (as I define them) were inevitable. Even if you call them something else, they are going to be present.
--
Jasyn Jones
jasynj (at) gmail (dot) com

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
Ulysses, Alfred Lord Tennyson

Check out my Torg webpage, Storm Knights:
web.me.com/stormknights/